r12 replacements

[RDusch]

I was asked to repost the r12 replacments so here ya go

R409A (direct drop in no oil change nessesary and can be dumped on top of r12 if evacuating the system is not an option low side pressures match r12 high side runs a little highter aprox 20 psi, takes 15% less gas)

MP39 (r401a) (also can be used as a direct drop in without an oil change, but works best with an alkylbezene oil, no need to flush just drain and fill, low side pressures the same as r12 high side 20 psi higher, takes 25% less gas)

MP66 (r401b) (also can be used auto aplication, works better with lower temps, but does work ok, low side 2psi higher high side 30 psi higher, evacuate system first)

none of these will hurt the seals or hoses
409a is the best for a direct charge on top of r12, but if available evacuating the system will alway be the best performance,
NOTE: all above blends need to be charged as a liquid, slowly, these are blended gases and with seperate if pulled of in a gas form.

hope this helps... ... ... ... . Rick

 

[M'staedt]

Rick,
Are any of these R-12 replacements flammable? Propane will work in an air conditioner but I don't think I'd want to be in a truck with an evaporator potentially leaking a flammable gas. It's tough to beat R-134a (non-flammable) with conversion kits selling for $35 and 12oz. cans of 134a available at every Autozone, K-mart and Wal-mart in the country. I converted my '78 Li'l Red a couple of years ago and it cools like a meat locker, even in the summer in NC.

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Love them old Mopars
('69 Charger R/T and '78 Li'l Red Express Truck)

 

[PHaller]

I just topped off my 86 toyota r-12 air with propane. Real easy to do and works great. I was a little concearned about propane but dismissed it when I asked the air guy at the local garage how much to top off the r-12. 150$ minimum. Wow! 1. 00$ worth of propane and the system works better now then ever before. I'm sold.
-Paul R. Haller-

 

[RDusch]

Mstaedt

all the above are non flamable.

propane has been used for years, and tested over and over and unless you geta pencil size hole in the system normal leaks would be so small the gas would be dilluted to the point where combustion just won't happen. if i can fid the test articles at work i'll try to post them.

134a works well, but during tasting of the product the report that the test mice nuts were swelling to the size of soft balls kinda turn off on that one... ..... #ad


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[This message has been edited by Rick Dusch (edited 05-25-2001). ]

 

[jsimpson]

I've changed to R134. It works great and I don't have any trouble finding shops that will work on it. If I'd used a substitute there's not a shop in town that would even vacuum it down for me if I'd done my OWN repairs!

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http://coffeewithJesus. homestead.com/web1.html 89 1-ton, Amsoil, K&N, cleaned-up exhaust with Dynomax straight-thru, rebuilt injector pump, thermostatically controlled twin 14" PermaCool electric fans, intercooler, 16cm housing, modified 518 OD transmission, Gear vendors OD controler, Reese Titan 2. 5" receiver, R-134 refrigerant, louvered front fenders, 93 aftermarket smoothie grille, Chromacolor black, redlined black rubber rubstrip, black headlights, powdercoated bumpers & door handles, Hadley Ambassadors; 78 35'Avion, 93 Lance 900 slide in with generator . To see my truck, Click on: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1169022&a=10097213&f=0

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[sam peterson]

RIGHT ON SIMPSON---ANY OF YOU GUYS THAT ARE USING ALTERNATE REFRIGERANTS THAT DON'T HAVE SPECIAL FITTINGS INSTALLED-PLEASE TELL THE SHOP THAT MIGHT BE WORKING ON YOUR A/C ABOUT IT SO HE WON'T RECOVER IT INTO HIS A/C MACHINE AND CONTAMINATE HIS MACHINE & REFREGERANT. . USE 134A SO THE SYSTEM CAN BE WORKED ON IN THE FUTURE----SAM

 

[paccool]

Back to the top

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Two things:



Can the R-409 be bought in 1 lb cans, and where?



What sort of adapters are available to apply propane into an AC system - where do you get them?

 

[RDusch]

409 a, i've only seen available in 30lb+ cylinders , most of the commercial r-12 replacments are the same... ... . Rick

 

[RDusch]

After doing a litle lookin for small can r-12 replacments i found one, R406a ,(AutoFrost) R12 replacement and R134a replacment

(CoolTop) here are some like for some interesting reading



http://www.autofrost.com/x8feat.html



http://www.autofrost.com/x3feat.html



http://www.refrigerantsales.com/

 

[bvanetten]

Any of you guys heard of this stuff?

http://www.freon-r12-replacements.com/envirosafe_tech.htm



I'm thinking about trying it in the burb. For the price what the hell!



Bruce

 

[fastmark]

134 conversion

I just converted my 84 to 134. When I first got the truck running I put it back on r12. It lasted for about three short trips and blew the suction line off and I lost all my r12! The spring must have been damaged at the condensor, I guess. I did not want to go thru that again. I was told it would cool just as good. I sold my 3 cases of r12 for 23 bucks a can and had a shop do the conversion. I don't have the right gauges. They put a special clamp on the fitting so it would not blow off again. It does not cool as good as it did before. I should have kept the r12! It gets hot in Texas!

 

[dasyure]

Hey Bruce;

Had eviro safe in 2 delivery vans for about 2 weeks so far it runs a littel less high side pressure and 5 to 8 degrees cooler than R-12. Put it in a 85 chevy don't know what it was doing befor (it was empty) but with the ev it was 43 on high fan out side air and it was 86 out side at the time. If you want to know more numbers in a couple of days I'm going to warm up the truck make shure it's toped off (R-12) check temps and switch it to the enviro safe.

Anything else you what to know?

Sean

 

[bvanetten]

Great! Thats what I wanted to hear. Lower high side pressures and lower air duct temps also. Sounds like the testimonials on their web site are correct. I really really didn't want to use 134a or some blend. From what I've read 134a is 50 times more carcinogenic than r12. The stuff causes testicular cancer! SAVE THE PLANET... KILL THE TECHS! Nothankyou! Plus their going to be phasing out 134a in a few years just like their doing to r12. Do you want to do this all over again in 5 years? Looks like I'm going to be doing both my rides. The 84 300d isn't holding its r12 charge and I won't pay $34. 50 a can. I'm tempted to buy a 30lb can of this envirosafe! Let me know any other info you have.



Thanks

Bruce

 

[dasyure]

Even if your not act like a shop (don't think it matters but I am a shop) and call ev direct(1-888-913-1110) they said there are no discounts till you get up to pallet buys, there is always a 17 dollar haz mat shipping fee wether you get 1 can or 100. I bought some for the web a place in florida I think it took a week and a half to get here called ev same pice maybe dollar les and it was here the next day. I usually get discounts just by saying its for resale whats my cost.

And those who are afraid of flamible gas in the a/c I have seen fires from trany, diesel - gas, engine oil, and r-12 with oil in it are you going to remove those fluides so you truck can't catch on fire from a leak?

Don't know if it works but they also have stop leak for the rubber a/c parts and diff stuf for had part leaks.

I don't work for ev don't own any of the company and don't sell the stuff.

the last 30# I got was what they called industrial r-12 the guy said it gets a littel cooler than thier r-12 auto replacement, cost me 119. probably play with it tomorrow.

you do use less by weight and charge as a liquide, its a direct replacement (same oil) do need to put the 134a fitting on and clearly lable (ev supplied) whats in the a/c

Sean

 

[dasyure]

Switched from r-12 (system full by sight glass) was running 275 high side 34 low side 40° temp drop, put in enviro safe industrial r-12 275 - 300 high side 34 low side 50° temp drop at idel 650rpm puts out 53° (10° cooler than r-12) get movin down the road about 1700rpm it drops to 39° (also 10° better than before)

I like it just have to wait and see if there are any long term side effects.

Sean

 

[bvanetten]

Guy's

Just charged up the Benz today with enviro. The r12 finally leaked out enough that it was uncomfortable. It needed 2 1/2 cans. Charged it up tonight and at idle (750 rpm) I was running 40 to 45 psi low side and 200 psi high side. center duct was blowing just shy of 70 degrees. It was 106 out when I did it at 10:00 p. m. (yes, that wasn't a typo... 106 at 10:00 pm. ) Got on www.airconditioning.com and searched through their list archives and was told to top off with about 3 oz. of propane (envirosafe is a porpane/butane blend). After I did the high side went to 225 and the low side stayed the same. At about 2000 rpm the low side drops to about 30 and the high side jumps to about 250. 70 mph down the freeway the duct blows about 56 to 58. This just isn't acceptable... not when it is 116 out. This is a known good and working ac system. With r12 it would flat freeze you out and did so just a month ago! I don't know what's up. Any of you guys had better luck? am I doing somthing wrong? Phoenix in the summer leaves me know margin for error. I need every last bit of cooling I can get! Need to get this situated before I charge the burb. It's a dual system and takes 5 lbs of r12! At 34. 50 per 12oz can that gets expensive real quick! I'd really like this enviro safe to work



Bruce



Bruce

 

[bvanetten]

oops. that's www.aircondition.com

 

[dasyure]

The last two vans I did with envirosafe took 14oz to fill, r-12 capacity is 3. 5lb. call ev 1-888-913-1110 and tell them your problem, I haven't had any problems, I charge the system very slowly until I get a 32 to 34 low side pressure. My experience has been every time a 10 degree colder air temp (50 degree temp drop)

My best guess is fill it untill you have a 32 to 34 low side pressure when the engine rpm is about 1500-2000 but I would call ev there nice people

It is unclear did you add the ev to the system with r-12 in it? If thats the case I would drain it all out and recharge with about 4. 45 cans (26. 7oz) of ev if 5lb is the r-12 charge 1oz of ev = 3oz of r-12 or 2. 7oz of 134a. Other than it being unlawfull (mixing anything in r-12) the ev works best by it's self

Sean

 

[bvanetten]

I evacuated the r12 first. Didn't pull a vacume. My low side does get to about 30 to 35 low side at 1500 to 2000. High side is at 225 to 250 at this rpm. Is your system a expansion valve or oriface tube system. My high and low pressures seem to be real close to what they need to be but the temps just arn't. I'm getting a 30 degree temp drop. I'm gona try spraying water on the condenser and see what happens. I'll call EV also.



Thanks