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2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission READ THIS BEFORE YOU CONSIDER YOUR PCM BAD!! Low system voltage.

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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Tachometer problems

2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission 0.5amp load on battery

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OK, if you want a more detailed story on what happened see my other thread, 'Low system voltage-help appreciated-many questions'.



I'll try to give a brief decription of the problem then elaborate on the answer.



Going to work last Wed, check gages light came on, voltage gauge low and in the red. Stopped to make sure belt had not broke, it was OK. Drove on to work another 8-10 miles. Took alternator off at my boss's shop and borrowed a company vehicle to drive home that night. Stopped at an O'Reilly's to pick up a reman alternator, they put mine on thier test bench and declared it to be OK. Confused, and not convinced that the pimply faced teenager at the counter knew what he was doing with the test machine, I dashed across town to a shop that specializes in rebuilding starters and alternators. They were locking up for the evening but agreed to test my alternator. They had an 'Old School' analog style test bench, with gauge type readouts, the tech also declared my alternator OK and handed it back to me and shoved me out the door.



Re-installed old alternator, recharged battteries and drove home 60 miles on battery power alone, alternator not charging. When I got home I verified voltage to the big red wire, and ground to the ground wire with my digital multi meter. I verified that there was 12 volts on one of the smaller lugs with the engine running, and I tried to connect the other small lug to ground, which should have engaged the alternator, but it still would not kick in and charge. I switched the ASR relay in the underhood fuse box with another one, still nothing. I ruled out that my crankshaft sensor was bad because I had none of the symptoms associated with that problem. I was not convinced that I could wire in the external voltage regulator if I could not get the alternator to charge by jumping the small lug to ground, it should have worked.



Finally after searching the internet and this website and others and coming up with virtually no good answers, I still suspected the alternator. I called a local NAPA store this morning and they said they just got a NEW computerized test bench. I again removed the alternator and took it to them. NAPA's machine immediately failed the unit, while 'Volts' and 'Amps' were in the green the test bench said "Ripple Test Failure". I asked the counter guy what that meant he said he had no idea, other than it had to do with the electronics. At my wits end and my brain fried, I gave NAPA $120, for thier 3 year warranty alternator, returned home and installed it.



PRESTO!! Problem solved!! The new alternator charges fine, I was ready to start hacking and splicing wires to install an external regulator, thinking the PCM was the culprit. I just wonder how many people have done this exact thing trying to solve a problem such as mine. An intact wiring harness is too good a thing to waste, I'm like the Dyson guy, 'I just think things should work properly'. I'm not saying wiring in the external regulator wouldn't be a cost effective solution, obviously it has worked well for many others. I was just having trouble bringing myself to actually do it.



I had never heard of the 'ripple test' before, and all of my searching online didn't turn it up, anywhere, I wasn't necessarily searching for that problem, because I had never heard of it. Just searching for 'alternator not charging' and 'low sysem voltage'



I'm just trying to do my part to help others out. Don't ask me any more questions because I'm not sure why it worked, just that it fixed my issue.



Good luck to all, as I said in my other thread, I am hoping to retire the old truck from the daily grind, hopefully by October at the latest. I'm looking at the VW Jetta and Passat right now, as they are a decently sized car at least. I went to look at a Chevy Cruze diesel and walked away without even driving it, much too small. I need it to be a family sedan as well, not just a work commuter car. Hopefully diesels will continue to gain a foothold in this country, I have been a diesel fan as long as I can remember, and continue to run our own small fleet of diesels, my 10 year old daughter likes them too, and when we test drove a new Jetta she said, 'Daddy this is too quiet for a diesel, it should be louder!' I tried to train her right, of course she wants a Beetle TDI for her 1st car! In Pink no less!



98. 5 Reg cab, 5-speed, 4x4, 3. 55's, 4" turbo back exhaust, Bosch 275 marine injectors, 375,000 miles. Van AAiken box (until it burned out, would like to have another, if someone has one)

1987 Mercedes 300D-Turbo 70k original miles, bought from a little old lady who pampered it.

1987 Mercedes 300SDL 250k original miles, it has never been pampered and is undergoing surgury for a blown head gasket.

1999 Mercedes ML430- 96k original miles, in immaculate condition and FOR SALE.

1993 Mustang 5. 0 convertible, -91k original miles, just for fun.
 
Ripple is AC voltage on the DC line. Diodes (One or more bad) will cause this. Ripple check has been around for a long time. It only requires a voltmeter.

Dave
 
Remembering what I saw *years* ago when my 200SX's alternator went bad between Ft. Worth and Dallas; it worked fine when 'cool', but produced low voltage/current when rather hot. If you put an oscilloscope on the output of a good alternator, you should see something that looks like three top halves of a sine wave. When one diode goes bad, you'll see two humps and a flat (33% of the alternator's output is 'cancelled'; with two bad, you'll see one hump and two flats (66% is 'cancelled'); with all three bad, (100% is 'cancelled'). If you can find new diodes, you can replace them. But given the infrequency of failure these days, you're probably better off buying a quality rebuilt; I've found local shops often do a good job.
 
i've seen battery chargers no good for the same reason - a bad diode in the rectifier. . it says its 12 volts, but its 12 volts ac, which wont charge a battery.
 
Thanks for the replies, you guys are more educated about electronics and electrical stuff than I am apparently. It was news to me. Anyhow, just glad my old trusty truck is back on the road!



Thanks Again.
 
It's been a while, but I think the limit is 250mV AC if you check the alternator with a standard DVM.

I was taught that it is called AC leakage, not "Ripple", and yes it can cause havoc with electrical systems, especially these newer more complex sensor controlled engines.
 
That old school alternator shop should have easily diagnosed the problem. An alternator generates 3 phase AC. A diode (aka rectifier) pack converts it to DC. If a diode goes bad then you get AC mixed in with the DC. With the ripple test you set your multimeter to AC volts. There should be less than 0. 1VAC. An oscilloscope will show the exact signal. This article has some pictures and a description of what's happening.

The diode pack used to be a replaceable part. No need to replace the entire alternator.
 
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That old school alternator shop should have easily diagnosed the problem. An alternator generates 3 phase AC. A diode (aka rectifier) pack converts it to DC. If a diode goes bad then you get AC mixed in with the DC. With the ripple test you set your multimeter to AC volts. There should be less than 0. 1VAC. An oscilloscope will show the exact signal. This article has some pictures and a description of what's happening.

The diode pack used to be a replaceable part. No need to replace the entire alternator.

Anybody ever found replacement diodes ?. I have seen rebuild kits but they do not seem to include diodes.

Dave
 
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Anybody ever found replacement diodes ?. I have seen rebuild kits but they do not seem to include diodes.



Dave



If you have the Denso alternator, the rectifiers are available from Foster Truck (Larry B). I'd imagine most alternator shops can sell them to you, if they will.....



http://www.fostertruck.com/diode-pack-rectifier-bridge-for-dodge-denso-alternator.html



That old school alternator shop should have easily diagnosed the problem. An alternator generates 3 phase AC. A diode (aka rectifier) pack converts it to DC. If a diode goes bad then you get AC mixed in with the DC. With the ripple test you set your multimeter to AC volts. There should be less than 0. 1VAC. An oscilloscope will show the exact signal. This article has some pictures and a description of what's happening.



The diode pack used to be a replaceable part. No need to replace the entire alternator.



Good article, and I'm glad to see someone understands how alternators work and is able to describe it in written text and diagrams!! I hate getting into arguments with people who just can't comprehend that their car produces alternating current!!! :eek: Of course, how smart am I to argue with them??!?! :-laf
 
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Well, now I am really not sure. It is not a rubber plug, it is plastic and I imagine it plugs into two posts.

Dave
 
Yeah, if you have a plug in and not the two posts with nuts on it, then it's a Bosch. The rectifiers are available from various shops and online sources... . I use my local alternator guy, and I take them to him unless they're a real PITA to take off, like on certain Versatile or Big Cam Cummins applications.....

I think this is the correct one, I'm not sure, their part number is different than the ones I get from my guy... . http://store.alternatorparts.com/ibr225--.aspx
 
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Yeah, if you have a plug in and not the two posts with nuts on it, then it's a Bosch. The rectifiers are available from various shops and online sources... . I use my local alternator guy, and I take them to him unless they're a real PITA to take off, like on certain Versatile or Big Cam Cummins applications.....

I think this is the correct one, I'm not sure, their part number is different than the ones I get from my guy... . http://store.alternatorparts.com/ibr225--.aspx

Thanks for the link, I will keep it book marked because you never know.

Dave
 
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I just had my alternator rebuilt. It was original, 18 years, 295k miles, untouched. It wouldn't produce more than 75A. Two of the diode studs were blue (extreme heat). The slip ring inside was shot. And I think the brushes were nigh well gone. One test showed it had 750mA ripple. The lady in the rebuilder's office said replacing the slip ring is a PITA (no, she didn't use the acronym). But I got it back; it's in the truck and charging nicely.

The next problem was that my 14-year-old 650CCA Optima red tops were failing; clearly they didn't owe me much. One would produce 450A; the other only 350A. And they would not take much of a charge any more; perhaps they'd been undercharged too long (like several years). Since I don't expect the truck to last another 14 years, I decided to save $200 and installed cheap Advance Silver 750CCA (or so) batteries; the post-install test showed the starter drawing the batteries down to about 10.5VDC. After sitting several days, the truck fired up instantly this afternoon (40-45°F). But after the engine heated up, the starter was back to its 'bring out cher dead!' speed. So I may have to get the starter rebuilt. It's also original, but I replaced the contacts &cet. once with Larry B's parts.

Anyway, if you have a bad diode, you may be able to see the lights/dash 'flicker' or 'pulsate' at night when it's very dark (no other lights nearby). But this may depend on the batteries' state of charge; or the flicker *could* be the VR in the PCM not behaving very smoothly.
 
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