Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Ready for runaway(?)

[WBusa]

I recall seeing vertical exhaust pipes with flappers on them to keep the rain out. I would think something similar could be used between the filter and the intake held open by a sear and trigger assembly which could be operated manually or electrically to stop a runaway.

The consensus out there seems to be that the only right place to put an air shutoff valve is right at the intake horn. Anywhere else and you risk the sudden pressure differential rupturing any/all of the rubber boots in the charge air circuit, thus bypassing your air shutoff valve.

 

[RDupree]

i make rv waste drain valves,i have manual and air operated. . $33. 70 gets you a very heavy duty waste valve in 3'' . . more for air type! go to www.dupreeproducts.com to check them out

 

[Joe G.]

I'm thinking that one of these things would make a great theft delay device. What thief would ever think to look for blocked off air?

 

[WBusa]

I'm thinking that one of these things would make a great theft delay device. What thief would ever think to look for blocked off air?

My thought, too, Joe. You'd have to be a pretty knowledgeable thief to recognize that that little box on the intake horn 'doesn't belong', that its a closed valve, and that the truck ain't goin' nowhere until you open it. So I guess you could argue that this is a mod that you actually do get to use!



The Roda Deaco valve is tripped via a cable running to the dashboard, but to reset (open) it you have to flip a lever on the valve itself... so you'd have to go into the engine compartment before starting...



Question: if our ignorant thief (or a forgetful family member) is crankin' away on the starter while the valve on the intake horn is closed, do you think this could harm the engine at all (cranking against a vacuum)? I mean, aside from overheating the starter.

 

[pwerwagn]

Yesterday while at our chapter lunch, another member mentioned that a local dealer (Auges Dodge) had a runaway cummins in the shop early this week!

 

[Joe G.]

Question: if our ignorant thief (or a forgetful family member) is crankin' away on the starter while the valve on the intake horn is closed, do you think this could harm the engine at all (cranking against a vacuum)? I mean, aside from overheating the starter.

I doubt that could harm anything in the engine. These things are pretty tough. If the thief (or who ever) is really stubborn they might burn up a starter. I think a little inventiveness could solve the open and close problem without having to open the hood.

 

[Howard Durand]

I'm gathering up info on the Roda Deaco ( www.rodadeaco.com ) and the Chalwyn ( www.chalwyn.co.uk ) air intake cutoff valves. Both have cable-operated models suitable for the CTD, both butt up against the mouth of the intake horn and are connected to horn and charge air tube via reinforced hoses, so should be quite simple to install... running the cable to the dash would prolly be the hardest part (there are also electric versions). Both look to be very high quality devices. Both are pretty durn pricey (looks like we're talkin' about five or six hundred $ here for the cable-actuated models). I may just be the only guy around here dumb enough to pay $500 for a mod I hope I never get to use, but once I have all the info together I might just volunteer to coordinate a group buy, see if there's any interest.

I am definitely interested. The RV valve sounds like an inexpensive solution but am wondering if the shutter can actually make it closed under the heavy vacuum of a runaway. I looked at the Roda Deaco ad and and it looks like it could be counted on. I would want to be sure that if it is ever needed it will do the job.

And, no matter what is used, the anti-theft feature is a real good added justification for the purchase.

 

[RDupree]

i'll send a valve to rwoody to test. woody,you out there? i don't think theres that much vacuum on the intake side. there is no vacuum on a wide open intake hose,is there? somebody tell me!there will be vacuum when you put the valve on and close it,and only then,right? my valves can hold 250 gals of water pressure against it,is that more pressure than 15lbs of atmospheric pressure? who wants to test one? i'll donate one to someone i don't know for a unbaised test. speak up now! my valve has a 3'' spigot on one side,3'' bell on the other. that means one side is 3. 5'' od,and the other side is 4'' od. we can glue adapters on to make bothe sides 4'' or boths sides 3. 5''. . you need maybe 3'' of space to mount it into your hose. i did heat testing on my valves for prevost bus co. the average temp under the hood of a prevost bus is 250 degrees,so,we put my valve in the oven @ 250 degrees for 12 hours. only a little minor distortion. with no leaks found afterwards. . www.dupreeproducts.com randy dupree

 

[RDupree]

ohh,i forgot,whoever gets one needs to post his results on this thread. my truck has an 8. 3 cummins,and the way its setup would take some serious work. randy

 

[WBusa]

RDupree, I appreciate you stepping forward, but the problem is there is no way to test it adequately unless you're willing to run your CTD up to maybe 5000 RPMs and then snap the valve shut. Any takers?



What's the value of the vacuum on the intake side? Well, of course, under normal conditions there is no vacuum... there's just the pressure your boost gauge reads. But what's the vacuum when your CTD is spinning at 5000 RPM and then instantly the cylinders are sucking against a closed valve? Dunno. Don't wanna know. In various laboratory work I've messed around with 'hard' vacuum many times in my life. Ordinarily you wanna ease on up to a hard vacuum, because scary stuff tends to happen when you just slam it on (can you say "implosion"? Or "catastrophic failure"?)... its like hitting something with a sledge hammer.



Please understand I'm not dissing your valves... I bet they're great for the purpose you designed them for. And I bet you tested them under 'real world' conditions before you started selling them, too. Again, the problem here is we just can't test them under 'real world' conditions as diesel shutoff valves, unless you can find somebody who is totally off his rocker (and by the way, I'd wanna see a random selection of four or five of your valves tested, so you'd have to find four or five loonies to satisfy me). The engineers who designed these diesel cutoff valves could calculate the forces they would see in action, then designed them to easily withstand those forces, then, I'm sure, tested them thoroughly under those conditions. Its mostly that expertise, design work, and certification that you're paying for when you shell out five hundred bucks for one of these beauties.



When you've seen as many people die in gory, bizarre accidents as I have, you tend to like your safety equipment massively over-engineered, designed by people who are expert in that application, and tested exhaustively.

 

[RDupree]

hahahaahhaa!! ok! i'll raise my price then!!hahahaaa!how do you know what i designed them for??chances are if your engine runs away you will pee your pants way before you close the valve anyway!hahahaha!!VBG!!

 

[Howard Durand]

hahahaahhaa!! ok! i'll raise my price then!!hahahaaa!how do you know what i designed them for??chances are if your engine runs away you will pee your pants way before you close the valve anyway!hahahaha!!VBG!!

Interesting comment but probably not too productive. Kinda steers me away from your product.



I would be interested in one of the "built for the purpose" valves if a deal could be made for a group purchase.

Five or six hundred bucks is a lot of change for something you hope will never happen but the anti-theft feature would make it more justifiable.

 

[RDupree]

ok,heres the real deal. first thing on an engine runaway is to slow or stop the engine,before it implodes/explodes. the only way to do in all cases is stop the air. if its a pump breakage that causes the runaway you can take an ax/hammer etc and knock off the fuel filter,then run and wait till its out of fuel. on a turbo oil leak that fills the charge air cooler with oil the only thing you can do its stop the air. whether its with a raincoat,a board over the inlet,or an rv waste valve. men,ive been in that predicament several times,working on detroit diesels and on one dt 466 that liked to runaway(3 times on my watch) a 2 stroke detroit will runaway while your adjusting the rack,on the 2 strokes i place a board over the intake,or flip the shutdown flap. on the dt466 while its running WFO i got between the tire and the frame and unscrewed the fuel line,twice. thats scarey. the 3rd time i just hit the fuel filter with a BFH,knocking it off. so,if you put any kind of waste valve on it,it will help. or use an exhaust brake,or carry a piece of plywood nailed to an 8' handle,so you can hold it ove the air intake from 8' away. . chances of your truck running away are slim to none. so,talking about implosions,explosions etc is just picking nat poop out of pepper IMHO. . if you got weird about my having a little fun with this,then you are wound way too tight for my taste. regards,randy dupree

 

[Joe G.]

talking about implosions,explosions etc is just picking nat poop out of pepper

I agree with Randy about the probablilty of having a run away with these engines in our Dodges. There are a LOT of them on the road. I have yet to hear of one doing that except for the case above where some guy had messed up the governor. However, if it was cheap and easy to do like an RV drain valve I might consider it. More likely to throw a rod or something happen because of a plugged up cooling nozzle than have a run away.



Detroit 6/71s were good at that. In fact, sometimes they run away and get over it before they blow.

 

[willyslover]

Joe. . my memory has a couple run aways over the years, turbo seal oil leaks were the cause... but I'm with you, not frequent enough to cause a bunch of action by all of us for sure. .

IMHO normal routine maintenance should alert us to seal leaks and get our repairs done in a timely fashion.

 

[Joe G.]

Gary, I think I remember a few hard to stop trucks because of a seal leak. I don't remember any full blown screaming fit run aways like the jimmies used to do. Maybe so. I do have a real bad case of CRS. I always check for oil and dirt in the turbo when I pull the air clearer off during maintenance. I don't think a seal leak run away will sneak up on us if we do that. As you say, normal routine maintenance will catch that one.

 

[Howard Durand]

Randy,



Everyone has a different idea of what is fun. If you were having fun, that's fine and if you think I'm wound too tight for you that is OK too.



Getting back to the issue at hand, the question I have about the RV valve is how quickly does it close and what kind of support does the shutter have as it travels across the opening? How stiff is the shutter? The valves that I am familiar with are just the push-pull devices made of plastic. As they age, they tend to become stiff and more difficult to move especially when the tank has sat dry over the off season.

I have no reason to believe your product is anything but the best for the application it is designed for.

My opinion is that if this device will absolutely never be needed, why go to the trouble and expense to installing one at all?

On the other hand, if having one could prevent damage to equipment and personnel in the event of a runaway, why would I want to use one that I had no confidence in?

My main justification for it would be that it can serve two purposes. Protection against the remotely possible runaway and prevention of the much more likely event of theft.

 

[RDupree]

what you have in an rv waste valve in an rv setting is that the lube gets washed away from the shafts and moving parts with your waste and your chemicals,the urine and the blue stuff is tough on waste valves. in a truck application there will be nothing to wash the lube off the moving parts,so,it should work as fast you can push it closed,on my air type,it will close in less than a second. the shaft on the standard valterra waste valve is steel,1/4'' dia. . my valves shaft is abs plastic,5/8'' dia. which one is beeter in this application? who knows? i'm not concerned enough about a runaway to put one on my truck,or my wifes truck,or my motorhome etc etc. . but,if you want one for anti-theft along with runaway protection,that makes sense. NOTE! if i was concerned about a runaway,i would use one of my valves to stop the air flow. i feel that good about them. they are the cadillac of waste valves,not cheap,but used by some of the finest coach builders in the world,along with all the greyhound type busses and all the entertainer coachs in the us,canada,and mexico. the reason?they hold up,are easy to fix,and the service they get from me. i'll still donate one! seeya... ... .

 

[Runaway Ron]

100,000 miles after runaway

My engine ranaway about 6 years ago. I looked for the post, but it was not in the archives.

I was on my to the repair shop because of a squeal/squeak in the engine compartment. I was at a stop light and al of a sudden the engine started running wide open. I had put the shifter in neutral so I couldn't get it back into gear. I turned off the key to no avail. Blue smoke filled the intersection to the point you couldn't see any more. I did not know what was happening nor what to do. After about 2 minutes the engine shut down. The engine was running on engine oil thru the turbo bearing. I don't know for sure why it quit because it was not out oil and not froze up. When I tore the engine down It had scored two cylinders. I had them sleeved and rebuilt the engine. It cost me about $4500. 00 with my own labor. It would have been between $10,000 to $12,000 to have it done. Keep an eye on the turbo and make sure its dry on the intercooler side ( no oil residue). I have about 350,000 miles on the 95 truck now and all's well. My Son has my former 94 truck and it has 295,000 on it. My other 95 is just a baby, with only 195,000 on it. I really am sold on these trucks. Ron

 

[djbobo]

"Runaway" Ron Is that how you got your name??



My turbo just let go last tuesday on the freeway. That sucker started sounding like a weed eater and put up a hell of a smoke cloud. When I pulled over and let off the throttle it took a few seconds for the engine to come back to idle. I then shut her down and called AAA. Thank my lucky stars it shut off with the key.



If it decided to not shut off and run away instead - I certainly would have liked the option of shutting my rv style theft deterent device on the chance that it might kill the engine.



Yep a theft deterent divice that gives an option to try on a rare runaway sounds good to me.



BTW truck had 214k when it went.



Another sidenote;



Did you know that the Ford 550 wheel lift style tow trucks won't tow a 2wd DUELY Dodge? His boss said it might crack his frame :-laf

A FL 60 with a flat bed and a 5. 9 Cummins ended up towing me instead.

So if you don't want to be towed by a very common Ford f550 - buy a Duely!!



He also said that both of their 6 ohs 550's were being bought back by Ford Hehehehe

The FL-60 ,on the otherhand ,was the most dependable tow-er in their fleet.



dj "need-a-turbo" bobo