2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Rear Brake/Hub Seal Questions

[MAYoung]

1998. 5 Dodge 2500 4x4 NV4500 5 Speed Long Bed Stock Equipped



Gentlemen:



Now that I have finished replacing the rear drum brakes and rear hub seal for my truck, I have a few questions about the installation (These are questions that require experience for which I have little. ):



First: The "feel" of the brake pedal and stopping: The truck stops fine. I think I notice the rear brakes actually doing their job since the truck definitely feels different upon application of the brakes. No noises or odd sounds, not that I would hear them over the sound of the engine. My question is of the brake pedal. I bled the brakes (all four wheels) and the brake pedal is firm and stays firm before starting the engine. Upon starting the engine, the pedal is somewhat soft and the pedal will fade but the truck stops fine without pumping the brakes. The pedal will move to the floor if pushed hard enough. Is this normal?? (A brake man that I know says that this is normal since people are now paying attention to their brakes and pushing them for all they are worth. ) Still, what should the feel of the pedal be? I just can't remember what the brakes felt like when the truck was new.



Second: The rear hub rotation--I followed Dodge's FSM instructions and torqued the nut to 120 ft. lbs. then backed the nut off 1/8". The hub rotated by hand but I noticed a slight resistance upon turning, not a free spinning hub. Is this the correct feel of the rear hub? Usually with bearing type hubs, you tighten until you feel the resistance and then back the nut off a tiny bit until it spins freely. What is the correct procedure?



Thank you in advance.



M. Young

Fair Oaks, CA

 

[SRadke]

If you're brake pedal goes all the way to the floor, in any situation, you have a problem. Could be a bleeding issue or a master cylinder issue.

The axle hub nut is somewhat a "feel" thing. I don't like the "torque to spec then back off" procedure because it is possible a bearing could hang up and not slide in till tight and bottomed. Also, are you certain it was the bearings that were causing the drag and not the brakes? I don't like to feel drag caused by bearings but am more willing to accept it on oil lubed bearings rather than grease packed.

-Scott

 

[fest3er]

I cannot push my brake pedal to the floor under normal circumstances no matter hard hard I try. If everything is right, your brakes should apply solidly with about 1/4" or so of travel. With a couple inches of travel, they should be close to locking up. If you can really push it all the way to the floor, you may still have air in the lines. Keep and eye on it.

As to the hub nut, you may find it's a *hair* loose; you only tightened it to the extreme lower edge of the spec. I torqued to 150, then backed off. I would expect there to be a little resistance when cold. When the hub heats up, it will expand, and more than the bearing does, so the tension will be about right. You don't want it loose. A light-weight car can get by with a little slop. But a loaded truck should be 'snug'. The SM has the correct procedure (which calls for 120-140 lb-ft. before backing off 1/8 turn).

 

[MAYoung]

Rear Drum Brake/Hub Maintenance

Gentlemen:



Thank you for your prompt response. I agree with you that the brakes pedal does not feel right. I am going to bleed the brakes again and then maybe see what's going on with the master cylinder. I believe that for a pedal to travel like that is indicative of a leak of some type. The FSM manual even lists a possible internal leak in the master cylinder or the ABS unit that would not show any signs of external leakage. Still, before I worked on the rears, the pedal was working fine--firm with very little pedal travel. Back to where I have been already working.



As to the hub spin feel, I agree with you both but I am going to go with the low end of the factory torque spec for now. I am certain that it is the torque value and not the brakes building the resistance since it spun more freely at the 120 ft. lb. setting than it did at the 140 ft. lb. setting. I will monitor it for the next several hundred miles. Someone knows the exact answer at Dana/Spicer but I am sure that there are several million variations of what happens in actual field conditions.



Thank you again.



M. Young

 

[fest3er]

BTW, since you are bleeding the brakes and the fluid looks 'dirty-ish', keep bleeding until clean fluid comes out. Especially if they haven't been bled for a few years. Never hurts to pull the waterlogged fluid out. (Remember, it is hygroscopic: it loves to absorb water and rust brake systems from the inside. )

 

[HHhuntitall]

... . and on the wheel bearing nut... . did you install new bearings or use the old ones? If using the old bearings, I'd suggest a 1/4 turn release instead of the 1/8 suggested bythe FSM, as new bearing will seat a little and break in, while old bearings have already done that. Of course you don't want any slack for the bearingto walk in, but you also don't want them too tight, as they will generate heat, expand, generate more heat, expand some more..... you get the idea. And check and see if your bearings are generating heat. If they don't seem to run hot loaded(125+ degrees), I wouldn't worry about it.



On the brake issue, I wouldn't feel comfortable with them going to the floor. As said above, that would indicate a problem somewhere. I'd first think you didn't get them bled completely. Next I would check the pad adjustment. Flushing the fluid is something to consider. I've got a fleet of 95-99 Dodges, ranging from 39k to 500K+, and none of them have a pedel that will go to the floor. Typically, from your description, the symptoms would indicate to me that they are not bled completely. Don't forget, if you have the brake leveling valve or ABS on the frame above the rear end, there is a bleed valve there, as well.

 

[MAYoung]

Rear Drum Brake/Hub Maintenance

Proportioning Valve/ABS Valve



Dear Mr. HHhuntitall:



I went back to the factory service manual and they do not specify any bleed procedures for the proportioning (leveling) valve that is mounted directly above the rear axle on the driver's side. They don't mention any bleed procedures for the ABS unit either. The simply identify the following sequence of bleeding:



a) Master cylinder

b) Combination valve

c) Right rear wheel

d) Left rear wheel

e) Right front

f) Left front



The master cylinder is done upon installation of a new unit and is performed on the work bench (per FSM). The combination valve does not have a direct bleed point. Neither does the proportioning valve. The only direct bleed points are those on either the front calipers or rear wheel cylinders.



Are their other bleed points that I am missing? I am plannig to simply bleed the system again until I get clear fluid.



I may have added to my problems. The FSM says not to pump the brakes. They want you to 1) Open a valve, 2) have a helper simply push and hold the brake pedal and 3) close the valve. You are to repeat until the air bubbles are clear from the jar of fluid. I was using the old-school method of pumping the brakes and then holding the pedal and then opening and closing the valve.



In any event, I am reasonably confident now that their is still air in the system as you have suggested. I have just not gotten all of it out or I have inadverdantly added air to the system. I will keep you posted.



Thanks again in advance.



M. Young

Fair Oaks, CA



Sacramento Arear Weather Today: Periods of rain, isolated thunderstorms. Snow in the moutains starting at 3,000' MSL with a high of around 52 degrees F and a low of 36-38 degrees F.

 

[CCiatteo]

If in doubt I'd give the old gravity bleed a try. Open everything up and let her drain, but be sure to keep the master cylinder topped off. This should accomplish 2 things. One you'll definitely get all the old fluid out and you won't have to pump and pump and pump and pump til your leg falls off. This method will usually get you very very close to a good, firm pedal. Then maybe just go over each wheel to be sure. But let gravity do the majority of the work for you.

 

[fest3er]

This last time, I cheated. I used my throttle stick and the electric seat to depress the pedal but good, then went back to open and close the valve, and repeated until clean fluid came out. Brakes are solid.

Oh, I think I misjudged pedal travel in my previous post. My pedal travel is maybe 3/8"-1/2" to get solid braking. And the pedal is solid once the brakes connect.

 

[budnate]

fyi- if this truck has the 4-wheel ABS, the ABS module next to the master cyl can be a real pita!!, they can do weird things when there failing.



I am still fighting mine and have read where other guys are also,when they act weird you can have bleed your system and its perfect but you get that slow to the floor pedal action... I am currently running with my fuse pulled on it and the brakes are rock solid... but I have the brake and abs dash lights on that drive me nuts.



there is green relay/fuse you can pull to neutralize it then bleed the system. to clarify when the abs module has no power it just passes fluid through it and does not try and control the fluid.



Peace, B.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I know on the earlier models, there was a bleed valve above the rear axle on the frame ABS valve... . I can't remember if there was one on the divider valved trucks... . I know air travels uphill, and I've bled a lot of air out of these on the older Dodges, especially the 1st gens... . it was just a suggestion. I can't say you do or don't have it, but if you do, it'd help a lot.

 

[Rich M-37]

Check behind the fuel tank for a rotted brake line. Also check for any other brake fluid leaks. When you pump up the brakes to bleed them don't let the pedal go to the floor when bleeding.

Rich M-37

 

[MAYoung]

Update For Thursday, February 17, 2011



Gentlemen:



I managed to go around and bleed all the brakes till I achieved clear fluid but the brakes are still spongy. I was working to flush the system so who knows if I managed to introduce more air into the lines. Tomorrow I will bleed the brakes "old school"--one wheel, one bleed at a time and I will continue around the truck as long as it takes.



I am also going the study the factory service manual to determine what effect the ABS system has on the bleeding process. Right now I have no warning lights or fault indicator for the ABS. This is not like my Dodge Grand Caravan in which you have to take it to a dealer to scan and bleed the ABS.



I also sealed up the rear differential and plan to add 5 quarts of 75W-140W Valvoline Gear Oil plus the Chrysler friction modifier tomorrow AM.



Getting the air out of these brake lines is a little frustrating as when I undertook the task in the past, it was a simple affair. Who would have thunk. Still, I believe the fault lies with the mechanic, not the truck.



More on the process tomorrow.



M. Young

 

[budnate]

I had to use a old school power bleeder system hooked to my master cyl and ran allot of brake fluid through the system to clear my spongy pedal.



B.

 

[mwilson]

M Young,

Do you have 2 wheel or 4 wheel ABS???



My Cadillac was giving me the same gob of grief with the brake pedal after a complete brake line replacement, tried everything. Service manual said I had to take it to GM for a "Special Bleeding Procedure".



I said Nay, Nay!!!



When you think about it after a complete loss of fluid the ABS unit is full of air. Any of these dealer tools or software simply open and/or cycle the valves in that module and let the fluid and air pass through.



I then devised the "Mikey Method" for final air removal.

Take the offending vehicle somewhere PRIVATE AND SAFE, find a dirt surface, dirt road, etc. and panic stop it from 30-40 mph about 4 times making sure the ABS system kicks in. That will move the air that is trapped in the ABS valve out to the wheels if there is any left. Will bring the pedal back where it belongs after the first or second hard wheel jumping ABS pounding stop. You can then bleed each wheel to make sure all air is gone.



That has worked for me so far on a GM and a Dodge with 4 wheel ABS after a complete fluid loss.

Give it a try, what have you got to lose??????:-laf



Mike

 

[MAYoung]

Rear Drum Brake/Hub Maintenance

Update: Friday, February 18, 2011



Gentlemen:



My 1998. 5 Dodge 2500 Quad Cab 4x4 NV4500 manual transmission truck has "RWAL" (Rear Wheel Antilock) brakes only. These effectively try to prevent the two rear wheels only from locking upon hard braking. It is not a four wheel antilock brake system. Although the Dodge manual suggests that you bleed the ABS unit before you bleed the wheels, there is no bleed valve or nut present on the ABS unit or the combination valve nearby.



I am about to try the old school method of a glass jar, brake fluid, tube to the bleed nut, helper on the brake pedal method. I will advise you what the genie in bottle has to say.



Thanks again for all your suggestions. I am continually impressed with all the knowledge present in this forum.



M. Young

 

[fest3er]

Mine is RWAL, too. And when the rear line failed a couple months ago, the system had drained dry. Didn't have any trouble after bleeding fresh fluid all the way through to both rear brakes. (Haven't done the fronts yet. )

The RWAL, at least on my truck, seems to have been designed to ensure that the truck hits whatever is in front of it if the AL engages. Any time it has ever engaged, it has *always* removed at least 50% of braking capability until the truck has nearly stopped. I could push the pedal to the floor and the truck still lollygags its way to a stop.

 

[MAYoung]

Rear Drum Brake/Hub Maintenance

Update: Friday, February 17, 2011 2:47 PST



Gentlemen:



I have made some progress. I used a glass jar with fluid covering the bleed tube end, a 3 foot long section of clear tubing that first fits tightly onto the bleed nut and my wrenches--5/16" on the rears, 10 mm on the fronts.



After checking the fluid level in the reservoir, I opened the bleed nut on the right rear. I then had my helper press down on the brake and hold it. I then closed the bleed nut and had my helper release the pedal. This is the procedure as proscribed by the Dodge service manual. (They don't want you to pump the brakes and hold the pedal since they claim it will only serve to introduce more air into the system. ) I repeated this on the left rear, then right front and then left front (in that order). I guess that I flushed about a pint through the system but part of it had to do with my own double checking of each wheel line.



I did get some air out of the right rear and the right left front. The other two wheels had clear fluid.



The pedal is extremely solid before starting the engine. I started the engine and it felt a little soft but better. I can't take the truck for a test drive since it is raining so hard right now and I have some equipment in the truck bed that I cannot get wet. Hopefully tomorrow.



I am going to bleed the brakes one more time before I take it for a test drive but it will not be until tomorrow. Dodge FSM suggest that you may have to do it more than once.



I have to go move a trailer (horse), equipment and be 85 miles away from where I am by 6:15 PM tonight so I have to get moving. I hope that I am making progress.



More later.



M. Young

Fair Oaks, CA (18 miles east of Sacramento, CA)

 

[HHhuntitall]

Sounds like you are on the right track. I checked some trucks on the yard, and the ABS valve I was referring to that had a bleed valve is only on the early 2nd gen trucks and the later 1st gen trucks in the rear... ... . sooo, that means you've got the ABS in the front under the brake booster, and have to stick with bleeding the lines like you have been. Sorry, I was no help, other than morale support... . You can do it!! How's that? Good luck.

 

[fest3er]

Rah! Rah! Sis boom bah!
If it can't be done by Young, the truck must be dung!

Maybe I'd best keep my day job.