Rear end sag with load

[Lorenz]

if the Timbrens are going to stiffen up the ride empty I will return them and go with air bags unless someone comes up with [another option]

I've used air bags an there just isn't enough travel in them for guys that off road. I didn't like the idea of using them in place of my bumpstops either. If you blow one going down the road, you're left with you an axel going metal to metal against the frame. I didn't like the lack of control and the pogo stick effect I got with them either. The OEM shocks were not intended to control this much sprung energy. They were the main reason my truck swayed 3-5 times around turns when I had my big Lance camper in the bed.



Here's what I'm toying with. They're called hydro bumps. For this situation I'd call them "Steel Air Bags". I can valve them to control thier own sprung energy and the PSI can be played with to get the desired ride height kind of like an air bag. Same theory as the Timberens, but they're adjustable with air and controlled with hydraulics like a shock.



Do these perk any interest? Who wants to be first? Oo.

#ad

 

[Lorenz]

Here's a picture for a better size reference. These ones are a shorter 2" stroke. I'd probably use a 6" stroke for the rear. They'd contact the axel after the rear end sat down 2" or so.

 

[Bob4x4]

I love the front bumps on my truck now but am still not 100% sure of what I will finish out the rear with. Carli has some new long travel air bags but I haven't ruled out the bumps in the back either.



Bob

 

[geusterman]

Lorenz... I am right in the middle of this. Greg and I were working on some stuff before he died and since then I have added two bags per overload spring (between overload on 3500 and frame). The ride is great... much less porpoising with camper than sitting on overloads direct. Main problem is the higher coil in front levels the truck empty then camper sags the rear. So I am leveling with bags on overloads. Ride great... sway is bad. Thinking Hellwig but that affects offroad. Of course... offroad is not too big a deal with camper... it is when camper is off I would need to disconnect the sway bar. Your thoughts?



Are you making a air hydralic damper for the frame to axle? Or are these like an air adjustable stop for overloads? Now that would be cool. George

 

[Russknh]

Do you have some pictures and part numbers for the outside airbag install?I understand that most of the airbag kits want you to install the airbags inside the frame and this makes your large slide in rock like crazy

 

[Lorenz]

Adding equipment to 4 corners of the overload springs would cost twice as much as adding the same equipment to 2 points on the frame over the axel. I’d want the solution to be a universal fit. 2wd/4wd, 2500 and 3500. I couldn’t make that happen if I were to use the over loads as part of the solution. The overload springs are only part of the 3500 trucks.



I agree with the nose high sentiment regarding the taller coils up front when loaded. But, I think the extra travel you get with taller coils helps the ride when loaded. The front end sags and bottoms out easily with the OEM coils and a load in the bed. 2" of extra travel and a higher spring rate works wonders in emergency situations when you back it up with a quality shock. We just have to find the best way to keep the rear end up and still maintain control of the extra spring rate it takes to keep it.



I was using Air bags and had my 2. 5 Series shocks valved accordingly (Adding spring rate with Air Bags means I needed to dial in more shock rebound to control the extra energy the bags could store when compressed). It’s like trying to control a mini explosion every time the suspension cycled around a corner or over a bump. Dialing up rebound tamed the extra spring rate of the air bags, but made the unloaded ride a little harsh because the tires couldn't track potholes and speed bumps. The back half of the truck would fall into the holes or off the back side of speed bumps. With less rebound dampening the tire could fall/track the event and the body of the truck would remain level.







I’ve since canned the air bags, lowered the rebound in my shocks, moved to Dual Purpose leafs for a smooth ride, and I’m tinkering with other possibilities to keep the rear end level under all situations.

 

[geusterman]

Lorenz, it was a blessing to find your experience with the 2500# bags being a high rebound before I went and did that. I opted away from the bags because of the desire for suspension vs a brick when I chose the 1000# bags (4) on the over loads. This could work on the main springs of the 2500 trucks if someone wanted to... I think. AirLift and the other guys use one on half tons. Why not two? Those bags don't rebound like the axle bags do. But they are not as stable as just being on overload springs and no air bags. Most guys just lower the truck down to the overloads with an extension on the bump stop but no good for those of us with level trucks. An adjustable air cylinder mounted on the overload stops of the 3500's and some way to put an overload with adjustable stop under the mainsprings of the 2500 might do the trick. The desire here is real suspension for on and off road PLUS the ability to haul heavy. There is an answer somewhere. Dodge sells a heavier front spring that raises the front only an inch or so. I was thinking of dropping down to that... and doing sway bar. I might just do the sway bar and find a way to disconnect for offroad empty... OR... clamp the overloads direct to the main springs and put more load on the whole spring system instead of just the overloads. For those who want to mount two bags... I am using the overload stops and creative bracketry as a frame mount but 2500's would have to be creative mounting upper bag brackets on the side of the frame. I hope Lorenz can figger this out... my brain hurts. George

 

[redfuelrules]

Lorenz,

Have you toyed with stiffer leaf packs for people that tow/load-up their trucks. I have the heavier airlift bags and they haven't held up well to say the least. Part of that is due to me overloading my truck, part of that I feel is due to a shoddy design. The bottom plates and ubolts aren't centered under the bags, causing the bags to compress more to one side than the other, and the top mounting plates have caved in.



I've been planning on going to a spring shop to have the main packs and overloads stiffened, but I thought I'd check and see if someone like you, who focuses on our trucks has any interest in selling add-a-leafs, etc.



Thanks

Ben

 

[Lorenz]

Lorenz,

Have you toyed with stiffer leaf packs for people that tow/load-up their trucks. I have the heavier airlift bags and they haven't held up well to say the least. Part of that is due to me overloading my truck, part of that I feel is due to a shoddy design.

Ben

I used the 2nd gen air bags from Firestone on 3rd gen truck. I didn't like the way the 3rd gen design was, so I incorporated the 2nd gen design onto my personal truck. The 2nd gen design use the leaf springs as a mounting point rather than removing the bumpstops and using this as a mounting point. Obviously you will be going against Firestones recommendations for thier product, and I don't reccomend that.



A heavier Leaf can be made, but I'm afraid the ride when unladen would be more than most folks would want to deal with. I couldn't say you'll be able to tow more either. Overloaded is overloaded, and there isn't a legal way to change the OEM GVWR. Shoot me an email and we may be able to make you a Leaf pack, 1 off. You'll probably need to upgrade the rear shocks as well to control the stored energy these leafs will store. I'm sure there's a work around.



-- email address removed --

 

[JDerbedrossian]

Sean I was with you all saturday and you never mentioned to me about these bumpstops. How are you planning on installing these front and rear???





Jake

 

[Lorenz]

I'm still going over a few different options. Inside or oustide the frame rail. I may use a different bump pad... I'm still working out the details.

 

[Bob4x4]

Sean is shy... ... ... ... ... ... . except on that ankle killing bike.



Bob

 

[Matt400]

The OEM shocks were not intended to control this much sprung energy. They were the main reason my truck swayed 3-5 times around turns when I had my big Lance camper in the bed.



Here's what I'm toying with. They're called hydro bumps. For this situation I'd call them "Steel Air Bags". I can valve them to control thier own sprung energy and the PSI can be played with to get the desired ride height kind of like an air bag. Same theory as the Timberens, but they're adjustable with air and controlled with hydraulics like a shock.



Do these perk any interest? Who wants to be first? Oo.

#ad

What ever happened with this idea? Did they work out for load control?

 

[geusterman]

I ended up with 2 extra long leafs and 2 extra overloads on each side with KORE Fox race shocks. No sway bar yet (not fun for offroad camping) and may be fine now. Headed out for a two monther pulling two motorcycles and carrying camper. Trying to find some sun. Not sure what happened to the adjustable air shock. Springs are tried and true. George

 

[Matt400]

Remember this thread? I never tried it but still think its unique.

 

[Bob4x4]

I have been running hydro bumps from Carli suspension for years now. They come into play on the last 4" or so of travel. They dampen compression only. No rebound. Heavy loads need additional rebound valving in the shocks.

The new King bumpstops that Carli is using now can be custom valved for whatever the application requires.