Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Rebuilding motor at 140,000 miles

[rrl989]

If a replacement filter does not properly "seal" in its intended OEM airbox, which over the years, no one seems to challenge, why do some continually debate in favor of a manufacturer?



Cummins says they are NFG, Good enough advice for most. But, then again, cigarettes can't really be bad because I see lots of people still using them, and, they still bought and sold everywhere.



LOL



Ron

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I absolutely. positively agree with the above post - guys will have a leaking stock PAPER filter, never let out a peep of complaint - maybe they don't do oil analysis - maybe they don't have a CLUE as to what to look for as they install or remove their air filters - THOSE guys should NOT buy a K&N type filter - they don't have enough SMARTS to be trusted with one - just like I don't recommend guys buy a Frantz filter like mine UNLESS they are smart enough, and will spend the SMALL amount of extra time needed to get the EXCELLENT performance it's capable of!



Below is a picture of the OEM paper filter I removed from my '02 truck at about 5000 miles that stuff you see around the edges of the blue rubber gasket is D-I-R-T! What do you suppose long-term continued use of a filter like that would do to MY engine? I have since switched to a K&N, and with that, use a liberal amount of sealant grease around the edges to PREVENT dirt leakage as seen below - and THAT is the minimum *I* feel should be done to provide a decent seal regardles of whether you choose to stick with a paper filter, or use something BETTER! The filter boxes in our truck are cheap plastic JUNK, and CANNOT be depended upon to provide a decent seal without help on ANY filter - and to rag on K&N for leakage like shown, while giving a OEM filter a free pass is DUMB!



#ad




As to the bit about racers who will spend VAST sums of money on top dollar equipment, pay crews, and travel all over the nation to race - THEN rely on a POOR quality filter... well, what can I say to a fool statement like THAT?

 

[T. Baker]

thaile, Back to YOUR subject here and not air filters.

Did your engine develope blow by slowly? When you say the rings are worn out what exactly do you mean. Is there any scoring in the Cyl's? Have you mesured the cyls yet with a dial bore mic? Let us know what you find when you get the mesuring done etc. I cant imagine you wore that engine out in 140K without something going wrong and you need to find that problem or you will loose the next engine the same way. High EGT's shouldn't make the bearing wear out or even the Cyl walls that fast. High EGT's crack heads and melt pistons mostly.

You cant really have worn out rings without having worn out cyl walls. If you have scoring that could be caused by excesive EGT or dirt entering the air sys. It's all speculation without Dial bore mic. mesuerments.

 

[Lsfarm]

Race engine VS Street or long milage engine

thaile, can you take a few photos of the wear you are describing on your engine?? Have you checked ring gaps to see how worn the rings are? As asked above, is there a ring ridge? or scored cylinder walls?? Can you post a photo of one of the worn bearing shells? Currious folks would like to see!!



As for air filters:



Guys think about it: if an engine is going to only go a few hundred miles in the case of a road race or Indy car or only a few miles like a drag car before it is completely torn down, rebored or honed, rings, pistons, bearings replaced, the quality of the air filtration is secondary to air flow, hence the use of a filter of the type being debated. Or in many cases there is NO FILTER so does this mean that since a AA Fuel dragster with a very expensive engine uses NO FILTER then we should do the same on our Cummins engines??? I don't think so!!

I tend to believe that in many cases an air filter is put on some race engines only so that the car can be sponsored by the air filter company! Creating advertising so that the general public will go out and buy a 'race filter' for their 'race' grocery-getter, it's GOT to be better, the race cars use them!!. Give me a break.



The long-milage over the road trucks use a tri-phase type filter: a screen to filter out the bugs and rocks, then a centrifigal spin is put on the air to spin out the sand/grit, then a paper filter is the third phase of filtration. This type of filtration is seen on farm equipment that work in the worst of all dirty environments. All my John Deere, Case and Caterpillar equipment has or had this type of three-phase filtration.



I've spent a lot of time and years turning wrenches and rebuilding engines, and I've never seen an engine that had worn out rings and bearings from anything but DIRT!!



If overheating was the cause of engine failure, then there were cracks in the head,or cylinder walls, melted pistons that made the rings stick in their grooves or lands, collapsed piston skirts, or burnt valves. Bearings that are damaged by heat are burnt and scored, not worn. Wear is caused by abrasives in the air and oil. Keep the air clean, and the oil clean and the engine will reach it's intended lifespan.



How many threads have been posted on this site saying that after hundreds of thousands of miles their Cummins' cylinder walls still had cross-hatched hone marks still visible?? That is the result of good air filtration.





If ya like the air filter you are using, be happy, I'm happy with my choices.







Greg L. The Noise Nazi

 

[K5IP]

I also live in the dusty back road country. My original paper filters were always filled up with dirt after about 7000 miles. The filter minder always seemed to be in red. After changing to a K&N, I never have to change the filter. It never seems to get dirty. Truck has nearly 100K on it and only burns a quart of oil every 5oo miles so the filter must be doing a good job.



Rog

 

[CumminsPower98]

burns a quart every 500 or did you mean 5000? 500 would be really bad!

 

[thaile]

I have not yet taken any measurements however you can still see the crosshatching in all of the cylinder walls however it is not as good as it probaly should be at this time in the motors life. However the rings are wore out because they are sharp around the edges and have distinct wear around the edges of them. The blowby developed fairly slowly but then got really bad really fast. If you would like to go by high EGT's visible by cracked heads and things of that sort. I have had two of those cracked heads:{ :{ :{ :{ one stock head and one ported and pollished head. The bearings were really worn mostly on the top side of the rod mainly because on all six top sides of the bearings have lots of brass visible on them where the bottom sides do not look as bad. Haven't taken the main bearings down yet to look at them yet that is still for this weekend. Doing this with the motor in the truck. One other possible idea on the failure might be that to of the oil nozzles that spray on the cylinder walls were laying in the oil pan. Keep the ideas coming guys

 

[Lsfarm]

try this and let us know

First finding the oil nozzles in the pan is a major problem, the oil spraying on the underside of the pistons is really vital to the longevity of the engine. Without the cooling and lubrication from the oil, I bet you will find the pistons skirt clearance too great.



Take a piston ring off a piston and put it in the it's cylinder just like it would be if it were on the piston, take feeler gauges and measure the gap in the ring, let us know what you find out. You can use the ring gap as a taper measure for the bore, just take multiple measurements up and down the cylinder, if there is no change in the ring gap, no taper in the bore.



Any chance you have or have access to a digital camera??



Greg L

 

[T. Baker]

There isn't any significant wear on the cyl walls if you can see the cross hatching all the way up and down even if it is almost polished out. From your description of the rings; they sound fine too. Is it possible you had a blown head gasket? Scoring can cause blowby witout parts being worn otherwise. Scoring = dirt or forien material or hot piston that expanded. a cracked piston or a cracked head could cause blowby too.

What holds the piston sprayer nozzels in and how do they fall out?

 

[K5IP]

Cumminspower 98

Yes 500. Although that is with a trailer. It goes over 1000/qt without a load.

Do ya think I should get rid of the K&N?

Rog

 

[hammersley]

Piston Oil Cooling Lines in the PAN has appeared before... Is this a **** poor design, bad assembly or what? Will this eventually happen to all the engines, i. e. have the lines fall off????????

 

[CumminsPower98]

Originally posted by K5IP

Cumminspower 98

Yes 500. Although that is with a trailer. It goes over 1000/qt without a load.

Do ya think I should get rid of the K&N?

Rog

Even 1000/qt seems like a lot to me. Mine does about 6000/qt running empty. As far as the K&N goes you should do oil analysis to find out if it's doing it's job. The one I tried did not work out so I got rid of it. Many people seem to do fine with the K&N. I think some of this has to do with the environment. I live in a dry dusty one.

 

[thaile]

Somebody tell me more about these oil cooling nozzles so that I will no how they stay in there and how to put them in there also why they might have fell out in the first place.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Do ya think I should get rid of the K&N?"



No, not necessarily - but I *do* think you should be checking it's fit in the filter housing - see the pic farther above as to potential dirt leakage AROUND the filter, which can and DOES occur with ANY filter used in the stock housing - the OEM pper filters do it too, it's simply that guys are unaware of it, or don't admit it. Sealing grease is available to apply around the edges of the filters to fill gaps and provide a proper seal.



If YOUR engine is already worn tho', the best filter in the world won't restore ring seal in the cylinders and reduce oil use...