Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Recommended Fuel Additive

[HBarlow]

Belief in diesel fuel additives is a religion based on faith. You simply have to choose to believe and ignore all criticism, all opposing points of view, the truck owner's manual. printed recommendations published by the engine manufacturer, anecdotal evidence offered by others, and facts.

Have any of you who practice this religion ever noticed that commercial truck fleets, company fleets who own as many as 100, even 200 trucks, trucks costing $120k or more, all of them fueling every single day and running more than 100k miles each and every year, trucks with 500k mile engine warranties, and all of them required to provide at least 500k miles of reliable service to the initial owner, don't use any fuel additives? Ever wonder why?

 

[krtcummins]

The loss of lubricity in ULSD makes sense, especially for us guys with VP44 pumps. But you could be right. Big truck fleets use out of the pump fuel with no problems,,, that we know of. It would be interesting to talk with some truckers to ask if they use any additives. How about UPS. They run ISB's now? They ran Power Strokes before.



Using two stroke oil in my fuel worries me, as I wonder what the valves and combustion chambers look like with the extra oil burning. Kind of like a gasoline engine that burns oil. The valves get all caked up and the burnt oil deposits it's self on the combustion chamber and on top of the pistons. It would be interesting to pull the head off of an ISB that the owner has run two stroke oil in for a bunch of miles. Anyone done so?

 

[BIGNASTY]

Ya I did notice it Toys r us Nation wide uses Schaffers/Chevron used some concoction/BP Arco used Power service/ 76 used some kind of snake oil/ Shell when they had their trucks ran something else/ I dont know all the brand names but when the OIL COMPANIES run the snake oil IT KINDA TELLS ME SOMETHING The funny thing about it is that they didnt use Fuel Additives - Nalco Company the crap that they put in your fuel for lube. so about your question countless trucking companies DO AND USE SNAKE OIL. Just a PS Toys r us has the new trucks with the Regen portable BBQ and they STILL use it so I guess the answer to the question is YES I DO KNOW OF A FEW

 

[BIGNASTY]

Cummins thank you for reminding me UPS runs HOWES it was one of our commercial accounts. And In calif they had Mostly International motors but that could be a difference in area. Fed EX was another commercial account that before we drop the added SNAKE OIL to there tanks. I also find it funny that Cummins sells the Fleetguard snake oil but I guess thats just to get in on the snake oil biss

 

[bheiting]

For years Cummins did not recommend additives. If the formula you are putting in counteracts the additives that are in the fuel, you could damage the pump. Cummins now sells their own additives - at least they did a year ago. Check their web site. I take it that Cummins now believes there is something to be desired in some fuels.

 

[HBarlow]

Dodge owners manuals and Cummins website, last time I looked, still states no fuel additives recommended or required.

Cummins probably decided that if people are determined to buy and add snake oil to their fuel tanks they, Cummins, might as well put some of that money in their pockets and at least sell a product they believe won't hurt the engines.

I've fueled at many a truck stop and never seen truck fleet drivers add anything but diesel fuel to their tanks or seen them buying additives at the cash register. If big truck operators are buying and using that crap it is probably because they are owner/operators using the same information some TDR members use.

 

[BIGNASTY]

For years Cummins did not recommend additives. If the formula you are putting in counteracts the additives that are in the fuel, you could damage the pump. Cummins now sells their own additives - at least they did a year ago. Check their web site. I take it that Cummins now believes there is something to be desired in some fuels.

NO NO IT CANT BE IT'S JUST SNAKE OIL I have listen to this for as long as Ive been a TDR member and I have just let it go you cant change minds and most of us will NEVER see the results in our own trucks. How many guys keep their trucks to see if it did do anything. Same with the By pass oil filters I have the FS 2500 will I keep the truck long enough to see if it did it's job WHO KNOWS. I oil test and its doing what it advertised ( but the oil is not clear as they show) it all boils down to if you think it works great if not dont BTJMO In a 7600 gal load of diesel the additive is almost nill some where in the prior post I had the amount per gal and it was drops that the 0il companies put in.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Harvey you and I have gone around on this before and you have some good points. The Dodge Bible said not to use it ok I agree. My dad was one of the same kind of guys that I turned into ( an A hole I know ) but he use to say and I beleive if it says it in the Owners Book then its going to be the fastest way for the car company to get your car/truck / bus / RV back into their shop to stick it up your A** for repair bills Its the gift that keeps on giving

 

[HBarlow]

Everyone can believe whatever he chooses to believe and practice whatever religion he chooses including the fuel additives religion.

I put 325k miles on an '01, 230k on an '06, and have 105k on my '08 (not driving it much anymore). All three of those trucks was or is troublefree. I have never added fuel additives, never used synthetic engine oils, never modified or added any aftermarket junk to air filtration or oil filtration, never had an oil sample done, and have never even changed the engine oil and filters according to the owner's manual recommended changes.

I have always used ordinary motor oils, Fleetguard filters, and 10k mile oil services.

Whose cost per mile do you think is cheaper? Mine or the guys who add all that crap?

 

[bheiting]

Harvey, not all of us are fortunate enough to have a truck stop with fresh, clean fuel just down the road.

 

[BIGNASTY]

325 miles on one of these motors is just warming up. My point, you didnt get to see if your maint. practices worked out before you swaped it off for what ever reason. I like what I bought and have always kept cars /truck/ and all other forms of transportation WAY beyond their useful life that's just the way I am. I have the BY pass oil and still change my oil before the oil sample said to. Until I have to start paying for my oil Ill keep changing it the way I do. You said Synthetic oil I dont belive in it I change my oil to get the crap out of the motor not because the oil is worn out. So why leave it in for 2 times as long and circulate dirty oil. I choose to filter Dino oil and change a little early. We could run semantics all nite long but it wont change yours or my mind thats the reason I like this Damn Magazine. Ill show you Harvey Barlow My wife's boy friend will be using my truck long after im gone

 

[BIGNASTY]

Harvey, not all of us are fortunate enough to have a truck stop with fresh, clean fuel just down the road.

REALLY !!!! I live pretty much not at the middle of nowhere but at the end of nowhere and I really like it like that. But the fuel stop in town let's me stick their tank with water paste on the tank stick and make sure it has no water. You must really live out there somewhere over the rainbow in the land of OZ

 

[krtcummins]

I have a question. Back in 1983, when I was a Ford dealership technician, (20 years) Ford made a deal with International (I think they bought them) and we then had International diesels in our trucks. I had to train on the engine and I hated it, as I was a gas guy, not a diesel mechanic! Timing the pumps was a pain in the ***!



Now step forward a couple of years. I started hearing from our customers that they had "lost a pump" due to buying diesel fuel while in Mexico. Not long after that, Ford came out with a technical service bulletin (TSB) advising NOT to use the diesel fuel in Mexico, as it had too much sulfur and the sulfur ate up the pump pistons and bores due to the course nature of the sulfur. Anyone here remember that?



Now we have ULS diesel and during the "Cooking" process to remove the sulfur, we loose the lubricating qualities of the fuel. What was the component that we lost during the cooking process to get rid of the sulfur???? Anyone know? if so, that is what we need to put back in the fuel. And,,,,I think it really only applies to the ISB's with piston ran pumps like the VP44. Clear as mud?

 

[WestTN]

I'm going to go with HBarlw here. I have 161,161 mileqes on my truck and have only used a cleaner occasioally.

 

[HBarlow]

325 miles on one of these motors is just warming up. My point, you didnt get to see if your maint. practices worked out before you swaped it off for what ever reason. I like what I bought and have always kept cars /truck/ and all other forms of transportation WAY beyond their useful life that's just the way I am. I have the BY pass oil and still change my oil before the oil sample said to. Until I have to start paying for my oil Ill keep changing it the way I do. You said Synthetic oil I dont belive in it I change my oil to get the crap out of the motor not because the oil is worn out. So why leave it in for 2 times as long and circulate dirty oil. I choose to filter Dino oil and change a little early. We could run semantics all nite long but it wont change yours or my mind thats the reason I like this Damn Magazine. Ill show you Harvey Barlow My wife's boy friend will be using my truck long after im gone

Gail,

Actually, when I sold my '01 it was to my daughter and son-in-law and they sold it last year to my friend, a former Dodge dealer diesel tech who has been my personal mechanic since my '01 was a young truck still in warranty. He has maintained that truck for me and for my s-i-l and daughter for many years. It still runs great and has no problems. He will own it for years to come. I'll be sure to report any evidence of failure caused by my neglect.

 

[cerberusiam]

The loss of lubricity in ULSD makes sense, especially for us guys with VP44 pumps. But you could be right. Big truck fleets use out of the pump fuel with no problems,,,

It makes sense for VE and CR's also, or anything thats internally lubed. The removal of sulphur has had the side effect of removing the large long chain molecules and aromatics that provided the lubricating properties in the older diesel.



As fas as big runs running with no issues, doesn't happen. Bad fuel, fuel gelling, etc, happens as does issues with injectors, pumps, etc.



The assumption that big rig fleets don't use additives and run trouble free is naive at best. Quite a few drivers that own or lease their rigs use additives religiously. A lot of companies that own trucks also spec an additive that the drivers are supposed to use when fueling.



Take a look at the selection of the additives available at truck stops. Stocking that much would not be fiscally feasible if they didn't have a huge turnover. Its not unusual to see 1 out of 4 fuel customers walk out with a bottle of additive and its a good bet 2 out of that 4 already has some in their truck.



What is pulbished, not published, reccommended, not reccommended is not even a consideration. That myth has been adequately disproved enough times for most people. Just because Cummins and\or Dodge doesn't take out full page adds and plaster it on billboards doesn't mean its not a good idea or not needed. :-laf

 

[JCyrbok]

Ive had a couple of well credentialed diesel shops tell me that Stanadyne is the best. I think that is also the concensus of the folks Ive seen posting on the tdr

Stanadyne Performance has never done me wrong in 120k miles, winter or summer no problems.



I also add 1 quart of 2 cycle oil every fill up too to make up for the meager lube properties of ULSD.



J-

 

[HBarlow]

It makes sense for VE and CR's also, or anything thats internally lubed. The removal of sulphur has had the side effect of removing the large long chain molecules and aromatics that provided the lubricating properties in the older diesel.

As fas as big runs running with no issues, doesn't happen. Bad fuel, fuel gelling, etc, happens as does issues with injectors, pumps, etc.

The assumption that big rig fleets don't use additives and run trouble free is naive at best. Quite a few drivers that own or lease their rigs use additives religiously. A lot of companies that own trucks also spec an additive that the drivers are supposed to use when fueling.

Take a look at the selection of the additives available at truck stops. Stocking that much would not be fiscally feasible if they didn't have a huge turnover. Its not unusual to see 1 out of 4 fuel customers walk out with a bottle of additive and its a good bet 2 out of that 4 already has some in their truck.

What is pulbished, not published, reccommended, not reccommended is not even a consideration. That myth has been adequately disproved enough times for most people. Just because Cummins and\or Dodge doesn't take out full page adds and plaster it on billboards doesn't mean its not a good idea or not needed. :-laf

Words of great wisdom from a guy who demonstrated awhile back he was completely clueless about how a diesel engine actually works.

Did you learn yet the reason why air fuel mixture in a diesel engine varies as more or less fuel is injected to control engine speed and power output not a fixed stoichometric ratio like a gasoline engine?

 

[krtcummins]

The one thing I wish they had done in the lubricity test with all of the additives, was to test fuel that was ready for sale. It would be interesting to see how different brand fuels performed. Then we would really know if we need to add an additive for lubricity or not.



I still say, by looking at the test data, if all we are after is lubricity, two stoke oil might be the way to go. But, I have seen way too many engines that had bad rings or valve seals. The results were "Club like" valves due to carbon build up, combustion chambers that had huge carbon build up causing engine pinging and pistons with huge amounts of carbon on top.



So if one is going to use a two stroke oil for lubricity, I guess it comes down to how much to use. How much will give you the lubricity you need without building up carbon in the combustion chambers.

 

[cerberusiam]

Ford came out with a technical service bulletin (TSB) advising NOT to use the diesel fuel in Mexico, as it had too much sulfur and the sulfur ate up the pump pistons and bores due to the course nature of the sulfur.

Kinda falls in there with all hoopla about taking the sulphur out reduced the lubricity of diesel when LSD and ULSD came along. First regular diesel has too much sulphur and destroys the pumps then not enough and it destroys the pumps. Gotta love the way urban myths propogate. :-laf

But, I have seen way too many engines that had bad rings or valve seals. The results were "Club like" valves due to carbon build up, combustion chambers that had huge carbon build up causing engine pinging and pistons with huge amounts of carbon on top.

Not in a diesel engine being used as it should be you won't. The cylinder temps are way too high to create this kind of build up. Even going thru a quart of oil every thousand miles there won't be a carbon build up as long as the engine is worked hard. Gassers and the EGR afflicted grocery getters are a different story but we ain't gonna talk about them.



These engines are called oil burners for a reason. They could suck the pan dry and all you will have is a nice clean cylinder.

Words of great wisdom from a guy who demonstrated awhile back he was completely clueless about how a diesel engine actually works.



Did you learn yet the reason why air fuel mixture in a diesel engine varies as more or less fuel is injected to control engine speed and power output not a fixed stoichometric ratio like a gasoline engine?

Oh, that is hilarious!! :-laf This from the guy that believes all the glossy marketing hype is the ONLY true source of information and is firmly convinced an engine dyno and a chassis dyno give comparitive results.



When you learn how to spell stoichiometric you can work on understanding what it really means instead of misinterpreting others. Your emotional knee-jerk responses to be shown up are ever so entertaining. :-laf:-laf



Harvey, we all know the pixies sprinkled fairy dust on your vehicles as soon as you bought them so you would not be subject to trials and tribulations of us commoners. Its a wonder you had to change oil or buy tires in all your travels.