Redline MTL in 5600

[Rman]

Gary, I agree that reducing weight of oil has an effect on mileage and the EPA has taken control of the matter and practically forced companies to comply.



HOWEVER, I've rebuilt several motors before and i can tell you modern engines have significantly tighter tolerances than engines of the 50's, 60's and 70's. These tighter tolerances will require different oil to lubricate properly. I pulled my 73 toyota landcruiser engine down and could practically move the whole crank back and forth, i checked the specs and i'll be damned it was barely out.



As far as argueing about weights, its really irrelevant, the manufacturer tested the weight they suggest. This means they KNOW that it works, now i'm sure others will suffice, but you go into that without that knowledge.



Personally I really doubt that a heavier oil will harm the transmission, i didn't design it, i didn't test it, i'm just assuming. I just chose to use the recommended weight, i did not stick with the recommeded brand because thats just their way of saying buy our stuff. I won't let anyone work on my truck but me, so i take that risk, and i'm ready willing and able to risk a transmission, I'll just get a new one.

 

[Rman]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

WELL, just for comparison, and a measure of reassurance, how many of the 18-wheel rigs use lube in weights down around what we're discussing here in their trannies and differentials... ?



And if they are NOT using thinner stuff, why not?



And why would THEIR heavy duty requirements be any different than some of us in towing applications?

Just another comment, your talking apples and oranges. Our trucks are pretty heavy duty... for a light duty truck. When you talk big rigs, your talking way more power and way more weight then ours could handle. Maybe our engine could muster up the might to try but our drive train would go home crying!



Just curious, which oil did you choose to put in your 6 spd? And what voodoo magic led you to that? I read up on it, chucked everything and flipped a coin pretty much. I figure it's a gamble either way you go, i don't trust DC much.

 

[John]

One thing I should point out...



I believe that the lighter oil specified for the Getrag 5-speed manual transmission was for bearing protection. If I'm not mistaken, the fine "needles" in the needle bearing(s) require a lighter lubricant to properly penetrate and protect the bearing.



See? It's kind of a catch 22 sort of thing.



BTW, I'm not sure why New Venture Gear specified the 5W-30 lubricant for their NV5600.



One thing is for sure, a light, 100% synthetic lubricant designed for manual transmissions will allow the transmission to shift easier and faster especially in colder climates!

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"One thing is for sure, a light, 100% synthetic lubricant designed for manual transmissions will allow the transmission to shift easier and faster especially in colder climates!"



And the above is EXACTLY the potential problem when selecting substitute lubes based upon only a COUPLE of externally obtained impressions!



Fella selects a replacement lube, and is happy with it because his transmission now apparently SHIFTS better - indicating that the syncros are reacting better to the new lube - BUT are the bearings and GEARS happier with the new stuff - and will THEY last better over the long haul than the poorer shifting previous lube - in other words, did he fix ONE problem at the expense of ANOTHER that might not surface for a few years? Indeed, even tho the syncros NOW seem to function better, will THEIR wear be accellerated due to the apparent increase in friction and grip?



There are MANY factors governing specification of a specific lube - ease of shifting is only ONE of those - and how many of the OTHER factors are we willing to gamble in order to obtain the ONE that seems most readily apparent? Just because in some cases, manufacturers are willing to sacrifice component wear for fuel economy, should WE be willing to possibly sacrifice transmission life just to get better shifting characteristics?



Yeah - *I* am still looking for the answer myself - and HOPING to not make my judgement on too limited an exposure to what externally SEEMS best on the short term - I plan on being buried in this truck - and want to keep it in the best possible condition between now and then...

 

[jtisdale]

Why would a company like New Venture give a rats a$$ what kind of mileage we get with these trucks? They just build the transmission, right? I tend to think through their research and development they would end up using the lube weight that performs the best, the longest for this specific unit.

 

[Rman]

gary you bring up a good point. Robbing peter to pay paul is not the answer. Just because bearings are makin it out ok doesn't mean the gears are sittin pretty.



However, a company undoubtedly will have performed cost benefit analysis on changing weights. It may make bearings last longer at the cost of chewing gears faster... that being the case maybe they found that the gear chewing was insignifcant and life expecantcy was not reduced enough to warrant further analysis. I do the same crap with computers at work, little different but same end result. Does the end justify the means to get there.



I meant to ask you about your fuel pressure guage setup. You tap directly off the VP44 with your line, have you experienced any pulsing that causes problems? I thought the pulsations would be strongest there and am hesitant to put my line there. I've got 13k on my 02 with no fuel pressure guage yet! i know i know, i'm chompin at the bit to get it in there.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Absolutely NO pulsating or related problems with my setup - maybe the fact I leave the valve core still inside the Shrader valve provides the restrictions others seem to need for their setups...

 

[krs]

I think that rhickman has hit on the reason for lighter oil usage when he commented on the closer manufacturing tolerances possible today. There has got to be room between parts in operation for the lube used and robotics and cnc techniques have revolutionized the automotive industry as it has most all others. No longer can the slow moving viscuous oils be relied on to provide near instant protection from contact to moving parts.



It's useless to make comparisons between our transmissions and those still in use in OTR transport trucks. Anyone whose ever overhauled any of the gear mechanisms used in those knows that the tolerances specified are relatively huge and to maintain a continuous viable protection consequently requires thick oils. They are slowly modernizing however, and that will change.

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

Absolutely NO pulsating or related problems with my setup - maybe the fact I leave the valve core still inside the Shrader valve provides the restrictions others seem to need for their setups...

FWIW, I , too tapped the VP44 right at the Schrader, and have NO pulsing at all. I removed the valve core entirely. I DO have an isolator, though. I have noticed no pulsing at all. i am VERY happy with my mechanical gauge setup from Enterprise.



As for gears, bearings, etc. Gary, I think you are overanalyzing. Your sharp mind sometimes makes you put the "anal" in "analyze" hehe.



True, modern machining tolerances usually mean that a lighter weight oil is required, because you don't need as much film strength with a smoother surface (given a constant load). The scenario of robbing Peter to pay Paul is hypothethically true, but doesn't play out much in reality.



I believe that the Redline MTL ALSO lubricates better in addition to shifting better. It is NOT necessarily a zero-sum game. I say this because moving the shifter is smoother in general, EVEN when you aren't engaging a gear. you can feel the reduction in friction just moving the rails as you pass from teh 1-2 gate to the 3-4 gate to the 5-6 gate and finally to Reverse. Even if you don't actually put it in gear, the shifter moves more willingly. This could only come from a reduction in friction.



In fact, the actual gear engagement is a much more modest improvement than the type of movement described above. It is still substantial.



With a better product using better technology, you CAN have your cake and eat it too...



Hohn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I hope you're right Hohn, and you probably are - Redline is highly respected, and I've not heard ANY complaints about their lubes, especially as used in the NV-5600. That's unlike other synthetics, which sometimes have resulted in WORSE gear grinding.



In any event, when I next feel the need to change transmission lube, probably next fall, I think I'll give it a try...



If I have problems, at least I can blame it on you... :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[John]

Gary, Red Line has been producing both formulations of their MTL for QUITE A FEW years now. This by no means anything new to the Red Line product line.



And BTW, reading between the lines of your last post (first paragraph)...



Amsoil NEVER marketed or intended their Series 3000 5W-30 HDD engine oil be used as a manual transmission lubricant. This is a very high quality synthetic lubricant that performs exceptionally well at its intended duty.

 

[Hohn]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q



In any event, when I next feel the need to change transmission lube, probably next fall, I think I'll give it a try...



If I have problems, at least I can blame it on you... :-laf :-laf :-laf

Hey, Gary-- you have to live in fame or go down in flame... Thus, i am willing to take the blame. Ha, i am a poet and I didn't know it.



I trust Redline, and i know a couple others that do. It's not very popular, but their reputation is golden. You have to get SOMETHING for your $$$! It sure is pricey! Who knew that Red food coloring was so expensive?? i think in the future I will just buy mobil 1 and add the food coloring myself:-laf :-laf :-laf



Hohn

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

How much IS the Redline stuff? The DC spec stuff was $10 a quart - surely the Redline stuff can't be all that much more costly?

 

[d90boy]

I paid $7 a quart from an online retailer. Also bought some gear lube for the same price. I know Diesel Dynamics uses and endorses RedLine products. It would be interesting to ask them if they've done any dyno testing of standard mineral oil and the Redline throughout the vehicle and see if they showed a power increase.

 

[Pit Bull]

Re: I too have changed to Redline MTL

Originally posted by csevers

on advice of The clutch guru and it does make the trans shift nicer most all of the time, only draw back was I got the 3rd gear clash when real cold under 20 degrees on the first shift to that gear other wise it is great



Craig

I get the same results with the factory fill. Just to let the members that don't know, if you switch to anything other than the factory fill you are your own warranty station for your NV5600

 

[Hohn]

yeah, I paid about $8/qt too from an online place. To me, that's pricey when a regular ATF or Gear Lube is about $2/qt. I didn't know the factory fill was that expensive!



Maybe the Redline is actually a decent value as well??



Hohn

 

[nickleinonen]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

WELL, just for comparison, and a measure of reassurance, how many of the 18-wheel rigs use lube in weights down around what we're discussing here in their trannies and differentials... ?



And if they are NOT using thinner stuff, why not?



And why would THEIR heavy duty requirements be any different than some of us in towing applications?

those roadranger trannys in pretty much most OTR trucks require a 40w50 full synthetic to get the full warrenty. if you use dino oil, the warrenty is limited [more than 50% redused]. they use the same weight as LT trucks do in the rear depending on their climate [cold they use a 75w90 or 80w90, hot they use up to a w140]



also, them road ranger trannys have bigger internal components and no syncronizers in there, so they can use a heavier oil. syncros will not like the heavy stuff much.

 

[jlccc]

Originally posted by jtisdale

Why would a company like New Venture give a rats a$$ what kind of mileage we get with these trucks? They just build the transmission, right? I tend to think through their research and development they would end up using the lube weight that performs the best, the longest for this specific unit.

I have personally spoken to THREE NVG engineers and they have never used/tested anything other than the Texaco MTX 1874 in that transmission. They couldn't give me a recommendation for a suitable synthetic. So, don't give them too much credit. Yes, the 1874 works, but it's not the only thing that will work, nor is it the best.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by jlccc



Yes, the 1874 works, but it's not the only thing that will work, nor is it the best.

I think you are probably right. I just can't $$$ afford to be wrong.

 

[csevers]

Me again

Since My first post I have added the Prolong additive just for kicks to see if it helps shifting , It does help, trans shifts as smooth as ever with the exception of the 1st and 2nd shifting problems that started this experiment with oils and additives in trans.



Craig