Well, right now, I'm typing this reply from about 8 miles from the tahoe side of the rubicon. Haven't seen too many jeeps, but there there. Gary, I went thru the rubicon first in 89 and have done it 4 times since. Yeah, it's hard, but I been lucky so far, and only tore a spring hanger out frame one time. The weather up here about 65 degrees and very windy. I've done quite a few hard trails around here, but truthfully, I would think that the Hammers, and some other "extreme" trails are tougher. But none has the length of the rubicon, cept the Dusy. So this has to be a factor. I think one of the reasons that the reputation of the Rubicon is so though is that Mark Smith bills it that way for the Jeepers Jamboree, and when first timers go thru, it is an impressive trail. But for total extreme hardness, there are many tougher trails. Looking foward to doing it with Doug though, and His jeep certainly looks built. Matt