SCAQMD Bans Diesel School Buses in Southern California

[wxman]

www.dieselnet.com

Apr 23 2001: SCAQMD adopted a rule which mandates natural gas buses for school bus fleets. A Navistar school bus diesel engine fitted with a particulate filter recently received an EPA/CARB certification to the 0. 01 g/bhp-hr particulate matter standard. Under the adopted Rule 1195, this engine is banned in Southern California, even though it produces significantly less particulates than most natural gas engines that are allowed. We once thought that the issue with school buses was particulate matter emission, but we must have been misinformed.

ecdiesel.com/decade.html

In a separate study published by the Society of Automotive Engineers, paper number 980189, it was demonstrated that not only did the particulate traps dramatically reduce PM, the filters did so across the entire size spectrum. As a risk in perspective analysis published by Harvard Center for Risk Analysis points out there is a lot of concern about particulate size and studies show that CNG engines tend to produce larger numbers of smaller particulates. These smaller particulates may pose a greater health risk than larger particulates. ARCO’s EC Diesels have been specially formulated to enable the use of these passive regenerating particulate filters which studies show reduce all sizes of particulates.

(emphasis added)

Diesel engines with PM filters even beat natural gas engines in mass PM emissions!

Here's the price for mandating natural gas engines:

ecdiesel.com/decade.html

- Operating cost for CNG is approximately 40% higher than diesel

- Incremental capital cost of procure 200 CNG buses is approximately $14. 2 Million

- $7. 2 Million for bus procurement

- $6. 3 Million for fueling facility

- $0. 8 Million for maintenance facility modifications

- Road calls for 1995 CNG buses were 40% higher than 1988 diesel buses

www.stnonline.com/stn/newsdevelopments/stnnewsarchives/april01.htm#10

Moreover, natural gas buses get an average of one half the fuel mileage of Green Diesel™ buses.

Is the objective of these regulations to truly clean the air or just ban diesel engines?

 

[Jetson]

It sounds like the objective is to show how stupid the government and bureaucracy of California is. They have been VERY successful lately. I'm convinced they're all morons. Who votes for them anyway?

 

[mikel]

Unfortunately stupidity breeds stupidity. The way it looks like things are going it won't be long before this kind of lunacy shows up here, Jetson.

Mike

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'99 QC 2500 SLT Driftwood 2wd SB 24v Auto 3. 55 LSD
ISSPRO boost and pyrometer, Autometer 3 gauge replacement pillar, Walker 24168, DTT VB
'00 Durango SLT 360, 3. 55, Patriot Blue
-- email address removed --
Howdy Agg's!

 

[R.E. Miller]

PERFECT, I never though I would seen emissions taken off lawn equipment, but here we go... . buses too, what's next, fuel injected weed eaters? (I really shouldn't of said that #ad
)

 

[SLVRBLT]

Maybe they should try electric buses? Whoops! I forgot they also screwed up the electric situation. Here in Oklahoma we call that kind of reasoning plain old cornbread ignorance. I guess it just goes to show you that you have to be careful of what you wish for, sometimes you get it.

 

[Bad340fish]

Hey if you have any briggs and stratton powered stuff that was made in the last five years take the muffler apart and you will find catylitic(sp?) converter like honey comb in it. A friend of mine and I were hot rodding a mini bike to use in the pits at the drags and found that out. We had by passed the governer and after running down the street at 25MPH it would be hotter than all hell. So we investigated and were shocked to see that honeycomb, needless to say its in the trash now lol. And the bike runs better now that the exhaust can get out. FI lawn stuff is in the near future i bet.
Clark

 

[illflem]

Knowing CA they will probably go to electric buses and use diesel generators to charge them.

 

[JohnE]

Come on guys slow down a bit and read some apple to apple facts.

Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) and Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) powered engines are much cleaner than equivalent diesel fueled engines. The gasers do not require a C*- rated motor oil to trap carbon particles. Gassers do not require an EGR to reduce No_x emissions to mandated levels. Diesels require EGR and retarded injection to get the same levels.

Particulate traps or scrubbers on a diesel engine are just as wonderful as the catalytic converter on a gasser. Sounds good in theory and works great in the lab, but get them on the open road (or mostly congested traffic) and your troubles begin. Scrubbers are a maintenance nightmare. How many of you have to purge cat turds on your truck?

Yes, a CNG powered vehicle does get roughly 1/2 the fuel mileage of a diesel. . In equivalent comparison, diesel fuel has approximately twice the BTU content as natural gas. Approximately the same derate is used from gasoline engines, too.

Why does everyone point the finger at California? CNG buses are used from coast to coast. The only place they're avoided is northern (read cold winter) climates due to refueling issues.

Small engines emit 10-100 times the pollutant emissions as passenger vehicles. In SMOG congested cities such as Denver (last time I looked not in California) mowing you lawn was worse than a full weeks commute.

Will a gasser (CNG or LPG) vehicle replace a true diesel? NO way! Does CNG or LPG have its place ? YES! Will I trade my CTD for a CNG Cummins? NFW!

Cheers;
JohnE

----
fixed my html editing

[This message has been edited by JohnE (edited 04-25-2001). ]

 

[Amianthus]

I just wanted to say one thing about these CNG machines. Cleaner or not, which fuel has a tendancy to ignite at a lower temperature? Which one is stored under pressure? Which one is more stable when transported? I don't want to say that safety precautions don't exist, but I wouldn't tempt fate. Just a point to ponder.

(I wanted to say, "Use diesel fuel. Do it for the children. " But that would sound way to corny)

 

[DennyDay]

Ca residents getting what they vote for every 4/6 years. Same old people, they just give 'em more power, and then willingly sign the check!!

------------------
Denny
'99 2500 4X4 White short Q cab to much added to put here
On Order- Mom's Ram 2001 Qcab CTD with auto trans and all the bells and whistles

 

[JMoglia]

Hey Ya'll,I read all of your threads and most of you are right,but if you remember way back the whole thing started with the bleeding heart, tree hugging,liberal democrates not all of us californians believe in whats happening out here,but there is nothing that can be done,the bigger the government gets the worse it will become. anyway I will be gettin out of dodge soon i've had it. If the truth was known the whole cause of all these restrictions is very simple,all buttheads that don't like to maintain there equipment and vehicals,yes thats right,and you know most of them are probably government employees too,so all of us have put up with all the B/S and just like it I guess. well thats just my opion c-yall

 

[MCrossley]

Joe I second that statement, not all of us are happy about the way California is run.

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TAZ... 2001 2500 SLT+ 4X4 Auto ETC Cummins, LSD 3. 54,Quad Cab, Long Bed, Agate Leather, White/Driftwood Exterior, Sliding rear window, Camper Special Group, Towing Group, Cab clearance lights,SPA-Technique Digital Dual Gauges (Pyro/Boost, Trans pressure/temp) Aux. Backup lamps. BNM 5th Wheel Hitch, Additional Body Molding on Bed. Line-X bed-liner. DTT's TC & VB, Pac Brake, Power Edge, Edge EZ, Grover Air Horns

2000 32' Aljo Triple Slide 5th Wheel.

http://www.ramtaz.com

Add on's to come: any other Ram Runner required modifications...

 

[R.E. Miller]

Bad340fish,
2002 is the year for the trimmer sniff.

 

[wxman]

I remain unconvinced of the presumed emissions benefits of CNG engines and this adds fuel to my skepticism:

CNG CANCER RISK WORSE THAN CLEAN-DIESEL WITH PM TRAP: SWEDISH STUDY. (Brief Article)

Author/s: Jack Peckham

Issue: July 14, 2000



Paris -- Contradicting southern California's rationale to ban new clean-diesel engines and replace them with compressed natural gas (CNG), a new study shows that the combination of ultra-low-sulfur diesel (ULSD) with a particulate matter (PM) trap actually produces less emissions cancer risk than CNG.



The study, by Swedish consultancy Ecotraffic for the Gothenburg, Sweden, municipal traffic office, analyzed actual exhaust gases of transit buses operating on diesel as well as alternative fuels including CNG, ethanol and biogas. Eco-traffic is one of Europe's most respected air pollution consultancies, with previous studies for the Swedish EPA and the European Commission.



Results were presented in a paper (SAE 2000-01-1882) to the Society of Automotive Engineers international fuels & lubes conference here.



Sweden has some of the world's toughest fuel and air pollution regulations, requiring ultra-clean Swedish Class 1 diesel. This ULSD, with less than 10 ppm sulfur, results in ultra-low emissions when combined with the Johnson-Matthey "CRT" soot trap, the study shows.



When combined with a low-pressure exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) device developed by Sweden-based STT, a clean-diesel bus can achieve ultra-low PM and toxics as well as cut engine-out nitrogen oxides (NOx) in half. While CNG vehicles produce somewhat less NOx on average, great variability in NOx emissions from CNG "raise some questions about the long-term stability of the control systems," the study found.

 

[Doc Tinker]

Originally posted by Amianthus

Use diesel fuel. Do it for the children.

I agree, Amianthus, and I don't think it's corny.



After all the safety stuff, that's required by law, they put on these busses. Now they want to add an unsafe feature? Next they'll want to put seatbelts (for safety's sake) in the CNG busses so the kids can be tied in while they turn to crispy critters!



Doc

 

[Power Wagon]

CNG engine exhaust is clean???? What ARE they smoking?



The local transportation system has both CNG and diesel powered busses, and if you get caught behind the CNG busses, hold your breath. They STINK... Reminds me of the odor coming out of some 30's car idling... so rich it smoked.

 

[Wayne M.]

Being involved in a municipal fleet, I have had experience with some CNG vehicles. They ALL are a waste of time! We even have a dodge ram van CNG, and while I must say the tailpipe is so clean it is rusting on the inside, the van is down quite often with either an empty tank or computer problems. We had a CNG powered Streetsweeper, and that was so bad they got rid of it. The ones we have now are ISB powered!



My experience with CNG converted/ dual fuel cars and light trucks is that nobody wants to actually run on CNG (hassle to fill) and when they do, the engine must be 100% in tune or it won't run well. There are little reminders near the mode switch on these vehicles stating that the car must be run through a tank of Gasoline per month. We do have one electric Toyota Rav4 in my zone, and I must say it does better than this other stuff, as long as it's charged!

 

[Uncle Joe]

you guys are missing the point... .

how else those voltures will be able to raise my property taxes???

im already paying close to 2k a year.

 

[catoiler]

California is so full of s#$it with their tree hugging rules and regulations. taxes suck too. who do you think will pay for all this . us poor slobs who are to dumb to move out of here. (ps i want to go but wife "likes it here")

 

[JohnE]

This only pertains to medium duty vehicles. It does not include our Dodge CTD (technically light duty) vehicles.



Compressed Natural Gas (CNG), Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG), and Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) powered vehicles were introduce many years ago because low sulfur and the new <em>ultra</em>low sulfur fuels did not exist. Ultralow sulfur fuels is still not readily available on the general market. Diesel exhaust scrubbers and catalytic converters were (and still are) a troublesome system to maintain. This same government authority that you complain about is the same that will maintain the particulate matter (PM) traps or exhaust scrubbers and cats in peak operating efficiency!?



How many threads are produced in TDR by the lowered lubricity caused by de-sulfuring diesel fuels?



Currently, Michigan and Pennsylvania have stricter requirements on diesel emissions than California. Last I recall, Penn & Mich. are East Coast? Mich. requires EGR on all diesels and Penn requires EGR and catalytic mufflers.



The biggest emission problem with CNG and LNG is the mercaptan (stink) additive. It really smells bad coming out the exhaust. But then again, convince the general public that a diesel exhaust is cleaner than any gas powered vehicle….





John



<font size=1>I am employed by a company that produces CNG, LNG, & diesel powered vehicles. Opinions expressed are my own. Fact presented is public record. </font>