School Bus Useful Life?

[TFucili]

Our local school district is wanting to float a bond to replace a bunch of buses. They just had the local paper do an article showing an odometer with 330,000 miles and saying how incredible it is to ask a vehicle to go that long. In my view a properly maintained diesel should go much further, even in start/stop service. Some of the units are 15+ years old. No snow/salt corrosion to contend with here. I know some states have strict age limits regardless of mileage. I know they skimp on maintenance to some degree. I guess my bottom line is if I felt the PM was top-notch and things were properly looked after I would not mind a replacement program, but to let thing deteriorate to the point that we have a fleet of junk, then go poor-mouthing and boo-hooing for a bond issue just chaps my butt. Any feedback?

mwilson, Wayne M, this is right up your alley.

 

[Tuesdak]

Just look for used Dodge 5.9 Diesels. 330K is a middle mileage with 200K average and 100K rare.

Should ask bigger questions like the increased cost of the modern emissions. Maintenance, fuel, breakdowns from clogged DPF's...

Seriously School Buses are trucks and should be good for 1/2 mil or more. It's the age that's really getting to them and the other systems like the AC, seats, paint, wires, etc.

Making sure the money gets spent as intended is the real challenge as other pet projects are fronted by school kids, firefighters, and more police. Same groups get the threat of the axe when gov't has to cut the budget. How long is the Bond term as this would be how long the replacements are expected to last.

 

[Wayne M.]

Yea, I'd say, in a militant PM program like UPS, they can go farther. I doubt that's going on. Unfortunately there's not much residual on these buses. At best they'll become flea market gypsies or whitewater rafting transports etc. what I'm surprised at is the muni is not interested in getting green n clean. That may be one motive, and there may be federal grant money to help getting green. I feel the kids deserve good wheels and 15 years is a good cycle. They may want to explore a staggered fleet so theres not the situation of having all junk and not having to make one tremendous investment. Our main fleet is a 10 year cycle, and it's somewhat evenly spread out from brand new to 2006 ish.
What to buy? I'm not sure where IH is presently and if they're still pushing what they've been, walk away. By me, the school buses are privatized, and seems that they're buying FL/ Thomas built Safe-T-Liners. That seems like the hot ticket now.

 

[JR]

I don't have any solid numbers but I am aquaintences with the head of the bus garage of our local schools. They bought a couple of new buses last year to replace the ancient Navistar powered units, and he said the fuel savings alone on those buses was enough to make the board consider replacing the other dinosaurs. Our school system is very rural and covers more square miles than any other school in the state, so results may be a little more extreme than average but fuel bills are a big part of the budget in any school system. Between that and reduced maintenance costs over an aging bus I could see how replacing them could make sense.

Some school systems have also gone CNG. I think Texas is leading the way on that one. Don't know how long it will last but fuel is currently much cheaper than diesel and I'd wager there are credits available.

 

[TFucili]

Thanks for the relies guys. Good points made. Like JR's district, our district covers a huge area, so some of the routes are really long as school buses would traditionally be judged. My perennial gripe is that they keep hiring $$$$ administrators who do nothing, and then skimp where it counts like building and vehicle PM. In the private sector you can't just tap the taxpayer, you take care of your stuff or go broke, you know?!

 

[BigPapa]

I work for a large public school Transportation Department at the bus garage. We have a bit over 800 buses. The oldest active buses we have are 2000 Amtrac's which are International's. Last year we bought 122 new buses, 117 of them were Cummins powered IC CE's, 3 Cummins powered Blue Bird's, and 2 Roush LP powered Blue Bird's. I think they're looking at buying another 70-80 buses this year.

We do have some buses over 300K miles but not many. It's not so much the mileage and age of the engine as JDoermire said, it's the age of everything else, air system components, door linkages, switches, lights, electronics, windows, roof hatches, seat frames, heater cores and valves, etc. Also to be considered is that a school bus is constantly stop and go, not many highway miles there unless it's taken on a field trip or ball game.

As to maintenance, I cannot imagine a better maintenance regimen than what our buses get. They have scheduled maintenance three times a year, at least two state inspections, plus any time a bus has a problem it is repaired and inspected again. Our state inspector, who is on-site @ five hours a day, five days a week, will ground a bus over a wiper blade, one blown light, or a CEL on, so the inspections are thorough. We use only OEM Cummins or CAT parts, the best lubricants, etc. I only WISH I could maintain my truck like these buses.

In my personal opinion to expect 500K miles or more than 15 years service from a school bus is not reasonable.

 

[mwilson]

Trying to get a reply together but this seems to be one of those days when everything is going to grenade at the same time...will get to it....

 

[TFucili]

I work for the XXXXXXXXX Public Schools Transportation Department at the bus garage. We have a bit over 800 buses. The oldest active buses we have are 2000 Amtrac's which are International's. Last year we bought 122 new buses, 117 of them were Cummins powered IC CE's, 3 Cummins powered Blue Bird's, and 2 Roush LP powered Blue Bird's. I think they're looking at buying another 70-80 buses this year.

We do have some buses over 300K miles but not many. It's not so much the mileage and age of the engine as JDoermire said, it's the age of everything else, air system components, door linkages, switches, lights, electronics, windows, roof hatches, seat frames, heater cores and valves, etc. Also to be considered is that a school bus is constantly stop and go, not many highway miles there unless it's taken on a field trip or ball game.

As to maintenance, I cannot imagine a better maintenance regimen than what our buses get. They have scheduled maintenance three times a year, at least two state inspections, plus any time a bus has a problem it is repaired and inspected again. Our state inspector, who is on-site @ five hours a day, five days a week, will ground a bus over a wiper blade, one blown light, or a CEL on, so the inspections are thorough. We use only OEM Cummins or CAT parts, the best lubricants, etc. I only WISH I could maintain my truck like these buses.

In my personal opinion to expect 500K miles or more than 15 years service from a school bus is not reasonable.

Excellent information, thanks! Can you fill me in on your PM regimen? Regular oil/coolant analysis? I don't spite the kids getting new buses, but if a proper PM regimen is not implemented, especially with newer emissions, common-rail engines we will end up with another pile of scrap at some point.

 

[fest3er]

Excellent information, thanks! Can you fill me in on your PM regimen? Regular oil/coolant analysis? I don't spite the kids getting new buses, but if a proper PM regimen is not implemented, especially with newer emissions, common-rail engines we will end up with another pile of scrap at some point.

You'll end up with a pile of scrap no matter what you do. The question is, "How big of a pile of scrap do you want to deal with? And how often?" As Scott said, pick a life cycle (10 year, 15 year), divide the number of busses by that number, and replace that many of the oldest busses each year. You have 150 busses and a 15 year cycle? You replace the 10 oldest/worst busses every year. If you're lucky with maintenance and mfr quality, you might be able to skip a year once in a while. And if you sell the 10 old busses while they still have some value, the proceeds might almost pay for one new bus. A regular schedule of replacement provides known expenditures every year. This is *far* more acceptable to people than a huge captial expenditure every 20 years; it shows that empoyees are doing their jobs and they are trying to manage/control expenses.

 

[TFucili]

You'll end up with a pile of scrap no matter what you do. The question is, "How big of a pile of scrap do you want to deal with? And how often?" As Scott said, pick a life cycle (10 year, 15 year), divide the number of busses by that number, and replace that many of the oldest busses each year. You have 150 busses and a 15 year cycle? You replace the 10 oldest/worst busses every year. If you're lucky with maintenance and mfr quality, you might be able to skip a year once in a while. And if you sell the 10 old busses while they still have some value, the proceeds might almost pay for one new bus. A regular schedule of replacement provides known expenditures every year. This is *far* more acceptable to people than a huge captial expenditure every 20 years; it shows that empoyees are doing their jobs and they are trying to manage/control expenses.

I agree with this 100%.

 

[Wayne M.]

A regular schedule of replacement provides known expenditures every year. This is *far* more acceptable to people than a huge captial expenditure every 20 years; it shows that empoyees are doing their jobs and they are trying to manage/control expenses.

This is what I was getting at.
Geez I love going into a local area and seeing how things are done pertaining to fleets. This subject is what I like, and thanks for bringing it out!
Scott, you've got great info and it sounds like a fleet that should be everyone's envy! Your key is the state inspector who keeps everything in check. I was wondering who was powering the IC buses since the maxx force died.
I'd love to explain more about "my" fleet, but I am so scared of getting jammed up since were under a confidentiality blanket regarding social media n stuff. Really sucks. But it's not hard to find out what my fleet is. The largest muni fleet outside of the USGov.

 

[Wayne M.]

I agree with this 100%.

So what's your plan? Going to get involved with the politics of procuring and managing the buses?

 

[TFucili]

So what's your plan? Going to get involved with the politics of procuring and managing the buses?

I normally don't get involved in politics, but I'd like to gather good information to back up what my thought process is, and then try to find a willing ear on the board to try to implement a better PM program, and a rational replacement program. I don't know if I will succeed, but this is a very small town, and poor decisions by bureaucrats can really hurt things.

 

[mwilson]

Some very good points made by all above.

My School District is striving for a 14 year life cycle. They try to rotate a few out every year and use the newest units for trip buses as much as possible. Mechanically, the power train should be good for 500,000 with proper maintenance BUT as mentioned above it's the other stuff that gives trouble.

We fight with corrosion issues, that's the killer here. Rims, Wiring, Compartments, you name it and it corrodes. Many districts have started with corrosion resistant treatments such as Krown, Fluid Film, etc. but in many cases it is too late.

Some real improvements have been made in School Buses with the widespread acceptance (finally) of Air Brakes and Air Ride. The Safe-T-Liner series by Thomas are very well engineered.....plus it's a Freightliner M2 so any dealer can work on the chassis.
I am leery of any pusher style units, be it Thomas or Bluebird as they are *******ized just enough to make parts and service more of an issue than normal.

We have seen increased failures of the TCM (Tranmission Control Module) with the Allison equipped C2 Safe-T-Liners as they age, probably another casualty of road treatment chemicals.

The State Of Maine has very strict bus laws. Annual inspections plus surprise visits to the School Districts by the State Police Inspectors keep the buses in good shape. We have many extra requirements for our buses, many buses for built for other states will not meet our criteria.
This is a link to the Maine requirements above and beyond the Federal rules. Also note on Page 5 the expected service life of both a conventional school bus and a transit type (Pusher) school bus.
http://www.maine.gov/sos/cec/rules/05/071/071c081.doc

Your town should not have let the situation get to this point, they need a better plan going forward...

 

[TFucili]

Some very good points made by all above.

My School District is striving for a 14 year life cycle. They try to rotate a few out every year and use the newest units for trip buses as much as possible. Mechanically, the power train should be good for 500,000 with proper maintenance BUT as mentioned above it's the other stuff that gives trouble.

We fight with corrosion issues, that's the killer here. Rims, Wiring, Compartments, you name it and it corrodes. Many districts have started with corrosion resistant treatments such as Krown, Fluid Film, etc. but in many cases it is too late.

Some real improvements have been made in School Buses with the widespread acceptance (finally) of Air Brakes and Air Ride. The Safe-T-Liner series by Thomas are very well engineered.....plus it's a Freightliner M2 so any dealer can work on the chassis.
I am leery of any pusher style units, be it Thomas or Bluebird as they are *******ized just enough to make parts and service more of an issue than normal.

We have seen increased failures of the TCM (Tranmission Control Module) with the Allison equipped C2 Safe-T-Liners as they age, probably another casualty of road treatment chemicals.

The State Of Maine has very strict bus laws. Annual inspections plus surprise visits to the School Districts by the State Police Inspectors keep the buses in good shape. We have many extra requirements for our buses, many buses for built for other states will not meet our criteria.
This is a link to the Maine requirements above and beyond the Federal rules. Also note on Page 5 the expected service life of both a conventional school bus and a transit type (Pusher) school bus.
http://www.maine.gov/sos/cec/rules/05/071/071c081.doc

Your town should not have let the situation get to this point, they need a better plan going forward...

Thanks, Mike! And you are right, they should not have let it get to this point.

 

[BigPapa]

Excellent information, thanks! Can you fill me in on your PM regimen? Regular oil/coolant analysis? I don't spite the kids getting new buses, but if a proper PM regimen is not implemented, especially with newer emissions, common-rail engines we will end up with another pile of scrap at some point.

We do random analysis and not a lot of that. Like I stated, we mainly have every bus in the fleet, active and inactive, in the shop for maintenance at least three times a year and things like oil and filter changes and chassis lubes are done by mileage from the GPS units if the counter isn't reset from scheduled maintenance.

 

[mwilson]

As I ponder this your town may want to consider letting the busing out to a private contractor as they are waaaaaay behind the 8 ball with old buses.....??? I see it happening more and more in our State.

As you can see from the PDF in the previous post all bus purchases for a School Department go through the Education Commissioner, I think it is becoming easier and cheaper to privatize it, let someone else worry about buying, maintaining, hiring drivers, etc......

 

[BigPapa]

As I ponder this your town may want to consider letting the busing out to a private contractor as they are waaaaaay behind the 8 ball with old buses.....??? I see it happening more and more in our State.

As you can see from the PDF in the previous post all bus purchases for a School Department go through the Education Commissioner, I think it is becoming easier and cheaper to privatize it, let someone else worry about buying, maintaining, hiring drivers, etc......

Sure way of putting me out of a job.

A few counties here in TN have tried it and ended up going back. There were rumors of it here 3-4 years ago but I think they've finally given up on it. A well run system will beat out-sourcing every time. Our governor is on a big kick right now about out-sourcing maintenance and cleaning of ALL state owned buildings. It's not going over too well, either.


Wayne M., are you "Fastback" on the School Bus Fleet forum?

 

[Wayne M.]

In New York State, the DOT runs school bus inspections and that's lumped into ambulettes, old folks mini buses, and any 15+ dedicated people movers. The DMV is not involved further than issuing a plate. The inspectors (who are not LEO or tradesmen) come to you if you have the facility, otherwise you meet up at a large barn twice a year for the special sticker. It's a rigorous deal, but recently a payola deal was blown apart concerning some of the small mini bus joints in Brooklyn.

Short story. Years ago when my boy was riding a mini bus, I was working 1st shift, and was seeing him off. The old Chevy cutaway reeked of steaming coolant. I called it out and the driver knew. So I let him go. I followed up at the school and he made it there ok. Next day same thing. I gave the driver a hard time about taking this unit back out- and did you even top it off?! This time I pulled him off and drove him in. On the way back, I see that unit on the side of the road with a geyser out the front. I gave it to the driver and company in New Yawk style.

I think this is a rare case where having a muni run operation, where the bottom $ is not top worry might be better.

 

[Wayne M.]

Scott, I'm with you. And no, I don't know of such forum. Link?