Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Semi-Auto shooting out of battery?

[Jerky]

Is it possible for semi-auto pistols to fire when not in battery but close to being there? Very new to semi-auto's but not to shooting and reloading. I had my new XDM to malfunction, only had about 150 rounds through it, in that the rear of the case blew off and it put a hairline crack in the plastic frame. It was not a double charged case but it was a standard load from a manual. I know of one other incident where the exact thing happened to his XDM. His was a 40, mine a 9. I am thinking defective case, possible gun malfunction etc,I am looking for comments, answers etc. Any gunsmiths out there? Thanks - Dean

 

[TRLRTRSH]

Jerky do a search on XDM's shooting out of battery, There are some posts on the web about it.
Glad you're ok.

Bill

 

[GHarman]

Is it possible for semi-auto pistols to fire when not in battery but close to being there? Very new to semi-auto's but not to shooting and reloading. I had my new XDM to malfunction, only had about 150 rounds through it, in that the rear of the case blew off and it put a hairline crack in the plastic frame. It was not a double charged case but it was a standard load from a manual. I know of one other incident where the exact thing happened to his XDM. His was a 40, mine a 9. I am thinking defective case, possible gun malfunction etc,I am looking for comments, answers etc. Any gunsmiths out there? Thanks - Dean

What kind of crimp did you use? If you effectively shortened the case with the crimp, you have created excessive headspace (Straight walled pistol cases headspace on the mouth of the case). This will cause a case head seperation. GregH

 

[Jerky]

I am using a taper crimp, no roll.

 

[ph]

I am using a taper crimp, no roll.

Please excuse if I'm hijacking your thread but what is a tapered crimp? Or where can I find that info? I think I understand the headspace thing but I've not heard of a tapered crimp. Guess I've been lucky. Thanks, ph

 

[GHarman]

Simple things first

Good, that eliminates that possibility. Measure the cases and make sure they are not to short to begin with. Then you must check the loads for the correct powder charge. All this before you check the firearm. Here, using handloads, the burden of proof is in your court. Next course of action is the firearm itself. A burr under the firing pin that does not allow it to retract after firing could cause this to happen. No matter what you may find, the very fact that handloads were used may cause you much grief, trying to get the manufacturer to repair or replace the firearm. I hope I am wrong. GregH

 

[GHarman]

Please excuse if I'm hijacking your thread but what is a tapered crimp? Or where can I find that info? I think I understand the headspace thing but I've not heard of a tapered crimp. Guess I've been lucky. Thanks, ph

A taper crimp reduces the neck diameter of the case gradually from the case mouth, back along the neck. It does not cause the mouth of the case to dissappear into the bullet jacket or a cannelure, effectively shortening the case. Tapered crimp dies are available for most handgun cartridges. Only those that headspace on the mouth of the case actualy need this treatment.



Headspace is a dimension that allows the case to be effectively held at both ends. When a firearm is discharged, that brass moves. The intent is such that the case expands outward (in all directions, it flows) and seals the breach(obturation). If it is not limited in its longitidinal movement at the mouth(or the breach) the case will stretch length wise. This will thin the walls of the case and create shortened case life, a burnthrough or complete seperation. High pressures and gas temperatures can cause unhappy things to happen with ill fitting cases. GregH

 

[Adventure Bob]

I think it depends on the gun and tolerences to which is was made. My berreta wont do it. During an assault training class we push the weapon muzzle against the target dummy hard enough to push it out of battery. The drill is to pull the trigger, get the dreaded "click" then rack and go. Its a close quarters drill to make sure you know not to shove your weapon into someone and how to react if it happens. The company that does our training has said they've never had a malfunction that resulted in a misfire from various plaforms. The instructor was using a Glock.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Firing out of Battery is a particulary dangerous situation. While there are some older designs that it can happen with, it is fairly rare with newer designed firearms, especially higher quality models like Springfields, Glocks, and Sig-Sauer. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it is EXTREMELY rare. My opinion would point to the handloading and many aspects, most covered by GHarman. His point as to proving it not to be your handloads is most important. Brass previously fired in another firearm other than yours may also be a contributing factor, as if it was an oversized, "commercial" chamber, it can overly stretch case length, and when resized, cause the case to "grow" as previously discussed... ... All factors to consider; fireforming, case prep, resizing, primer seating, proper charge weight, bullet seat depth, crimp pressure, bullet size... ... this is a very long list. Any combination of one or more can cause a failure of the case. My personal opinion would lie in an improperly resized case, fireformed in an exceedingly large chamber, and stretched to an improper length, then fired at a higher pressure, causing case failure and separation. A second guess could be improper primer seating. With the primer not fully seated to depth, it can be struck hard enough by the bolt facing to detonate. Those would be my starting points in investigating the cause.

 

[GHarman]

Slam fire/out of battery

Another possibility raises its ugly head and that is a high primer! Autoloaders have alot of momentum built up during that return to battery of the breach bolt/slide etc. One of the biggies here is making sure all of your handloads have the primer seated flush or a few thousands deeper than the head of the case. Still within SAAMI specs, of course! A high primer hit by a returning slide could certainly set off that high primer before the slide was in full lockup! High primers are easy to achieve with brass that has non-prepped primer pockets. Factory domestic brass has primer pockets that have rounded corners, inside, that interfere with the lip of the primer as you seat them. It does require more pressure to seat a primer under those circumstances. The primer pockets are also quite inconsistant, one case to another. GregH

 

[Jerky]

Well Guys - Thanks for all the information that you have provided. I will be looking into it. It seems that over the years after a round is loaded I always run my finger over the primer feeling for a non seated primer so I don't think that was the problem. I am kinda leaning towards something with the brass but don't know for sure what yet. Maybe I will never know since it is history and didn't find the head of the brass but will definitely pursue all avenues. I will start micing brass pretty soon etc. Again thanks for your help and I did google some sites where XD's had blown up. All I can say is "Mercy". Mine was nothing like those. When I get some info from SA I will keep you posted. - Dean

 

[GHarman]

I'd certainly be interested to know what the problem is! SA will surely want the wreakage to check it out. Hope you come out with a new gun! I'd definitely start reaming primer pockets. IMHO, that is the most consistant method of getting the primers where they are supposed to be with the same amount of sensitization. GregH

 

[BHaden]

15+years ago I was reloading for local ranges for extra income (not anymore; too aggravating way to make extra $). At "the end" I "blew up" 4 or 5 Glocks, all in . 40S&W.

I was not the only one. A friend blew up a couple and he used a totally different load than me including the powder.

Repair usually was a matter of a new magazine and a new mag release and maybe an extractor.

Later research led to several contributing factors. My loads were on the hot side of a published safe load. They shot well and people complimented me on the ammo. However, I found the bullets were seated about . 060" deeper than max which drove pressures through the roof. The third factor was that Glocks have feed ramps cut into the lower part of the actual chamber which leaves the bottom of the case unsupported.

Now mix in used range brass of unknown integrity and they blew regularly. There was even an industry article published entitled "Why Glocks Go BOOM!". I don't know if the XD has a fully supported chamber but it's worth a look. Other than that make sure your bullets are seated as far out as possible and keep the powder charge on the low side.

all the other suggestions I read above are good too. I thought I'd throw some more info into the dicussion.

 

[The patriot]

A little off topic

There's a new die that resizes the 40 S&W brass that's been through the Glocks to min dimension.



I was fondling a Galil at a show about a year ago. It would drop the hammer about 1/4" out of battery. SCARY!!!

 

[RDedrick]

not sure but last time i looked glocks say not to use reloaded brass. it swells where not supported by the barrel. i have alson heard of the slide almost coming off of a glock. i think it was a 40 s&w

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Another possibility raises its ugly head and that is a high primer! Autoloaders have alot of momentum built up during that return to battery of the breach bolt/slide etc. One of the biggies here is making sure all of your handloads have the primer seated flush or a few thousands deeper than the head of the case. Still within SAAMI specs, of course! A high primer hit by a returning slide could certainly set off that high primer before the slide was in full lockup! High primers are easy to achieve with brass that has non-prepped primer pockets. Factory domestic brass has primer pockets that have rounded corners, inside, that interfere with the lip of the primer as you seat them. It does require more pressure to seat a primer under those circumstances. The primer pockets are also quite inconsistant, one case to another. GregH

Had that happen to me with a SKS out on the range - had just inserted a clip, and when I racked the first round, it fired! Real exciting - fortunately, I had the habit of racking rounds with the muzzle pointed down and away from any unintended targets - there were others on the line shooting, don't think any of them even noticed what had happened - but it sure got MY attention!

 

[Jerky]

Back again - It has been awhile since I posted here but was waiting until I got my gun back. I received it about two weeks ago but was unable to shoot it until this past Saturday. After several calls to SA about it etc. Although they maintain that it will not shoot out of battery I have since learned of another exact incident like what happened to mine shooting factory ammo, don't know what kind. They won't say but I think they fixed it and shot it and something happened which delayed it again. To make this short after talking to them again they said they were going to send me a new gun. This one seems like it might have a stronger spring in it or something. It is shooting fine with only a little over 100 rounds through it. Thanks for all the input.

 

[GHarman]

Good news!

OUTSTANDINGOo. !!! GregH