Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Setting timing, but the gear keeps slipping - Help!

[JGK]

I have an early '98 12-valve with the 215 pump. A bud and I tried to set the timing on mine today. We have the Snap-On timing kit and successfully re-timed his auto (180 pump) last week. His is holding great but mine will not hold. The gear keeps slipping. We've used the same procedure in both cases: set the desired lift, pulled the gear, reset TDC, then hose the crap out of the shaft and gear area with brake cleaner and torque down the nut. However, the gear keeps slipping on mine. We even torqued it to 170 ft-lbs. But we can get it to slip just flicking the throttle as it idles in the garage.



What is the secret to getting the gear to stay put? I need some input from someone who has done this multiple times with success. I don't even want to talk about pulling the pump The only things we haven't tried is blowing out the area with compressed air before and after using the brake cleaner and using any sort of Loctite. I've search the forums and saw a few ideas, but nothing definite from any one with a lot of experience that I could find.



We've given up for the night. A call will go out to Piers in the morning. We'll give it another go tomorrow evening.



BTW: this same post will be put in the Truck-911 forum.



Thanks in advance. Happy New Year!



-Jay

 

[Jim Fulmer]

For starters don't T/Q the nut that tight 150(factory 144) should be fine! I remember a post that Joe D. put up about breaking the shaft at the at a really high setting(or the possibility of) other than that I would call the experts at PDR.



Jim

 

[Reb.B]

u have to get it super clean with no grit or oil on the shaft or gear. I lock tight mine. If i change the timing, ... i doubt i'm gonna change it again. No worries about it slipping down the road or in another state. When i get the new stupid pump on i'm going to drill and put a set screw between the shaft and gear. Ya, lock tight that thing on, just make sure u have the correct timing first.

 

[JGK]

After a call to 2 different Bosch injection shops, including the one that bench tested my pump last spring and got the dern gear on there really tight, and a call to PDR, the consensus is that things aren't clean enough.



PDR suggested raising the front end of the truck a little (or dropping the rear) to ensure the oil from the pump is not dribbling out along the shaft. I'll do that. Al also said I may want to replace the lock washer. But no one locally has one. So I'll make do.



They all said when I've squirted brake cleaner in there and blown it out with compressed air enough times to figure it must be clean, AND DRY, do it a couple more times



2 places said Loctite doesn't really help.



PDR and 1 shop torques to 160 to 170 ft-lbs. The other shop stops at 145.



Last resort is to pull the cover off so the gear and shaft can be cleaned individually.



Thanks guys. I'm still open to additional ideas, however.



-Jay

 

[Evan A. Beck]

I always set the torque to 160. Have had them slip at 144 (spec)-155. Getting it clean is the most important thing... I have done dozens of them, and never had one slip when it is clean AND torqued to 160. Loctite will not help, and could actually cause more harm than good. Use plenty of brake cleaner and blow it out with compressed air. Should do the trick.

 

[willyslover]

If all else fails ... find some one with some left over MEK [methelethelkeytone SP?]. . and that may be harder than fixing the slip thanks to EPA

 

[Jim Fulmer]

PDR and 1 shop torques to 160 to 170 ft-lbs. Ouch scary



We used contact cleaner on mine, but I don't think it's much different.



Jim

 

[Strick-9]

I've set timing several times on several different trucks. The ONLY times it has slipped was when a brand new pump was installed using an OLD gear. Not sure why, but I've done that swap twice and BOTH times we had serious trouble.



Once you get the gear off and loose, screw one of the puller bolts back into the gear so you can move it around. While you're spraying the brake cleaner all over the shaft, take your other hand and wiggle the gear up and down/ left and right/ in and out along the shaft. That way you can get brake cleaner on all sides of the shaft. Wiggle the gear around when you are blowing in the compressed air as well. It helps if you have an air nozzle with a 90° bend on the end because it is kind of tight in there.



I usually spray brake clean (about 1/4 can worth) then blow dry (20-30 seconds) with air. Then repeat.



Never had one slip doing that.



Good luck,

Chris

 

[JJW_ND]

Hear torque spec increase to 160 - 170

I got to experience timing slip after I head a head gasket installed. Twice with torque at 140 - 150 slipped.



Held twice at 165 (reset to increase to 20 degrees).



After some checking, it sounded like the new spece was 160 - 170.



jjw

ND

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Use Mopar 4897150AB brake cleaner. Most parts house cleaners have heavy hydrocarbons that don't evaporate well and leave residues. Behind the gear is the approx. 4. 25" diameter by 15/16" deep hole in the gear housing for the pump nose (front bearing retainer), but there is a trough because the pump nose doesn't end up flush (it's only about 7/16" thick). The trough therefore ends up about 1/2" deep and will accumulate the spray cleaner and oil. When you spray excessively or blow dry real hard, you may be kicking up some of the oil/cleaner there.



I use a good amount of cleaner, but also thread a long bolt into the gear so I can wiggle it and be sure all parts of the taper get cleaned. I blow dry carefully, again, not with real high flow/pressure.



Push the gear into place. Don't rely on the nut to pull it onto the taper. Leave the oil on the nut and washer because you have washed all the oil off the threads on the pump shaft, and you want something on those threads.



DON'T use over 150 ft lb. The threads were torn off on the $800 215 hp shaft by a friend using 175 ft lb. Then you have $500 to R&R the shaft. If the taper is clean and dry, you'd be surprised how few ft lb are really needed. If not clean and dry, you can't get it tight enough to hold.



If you can drill and tap the gear and shaft for a set screw, you are a real man It is harder than the hubs of h@#$.

Hope this helps.

 

[JGK]

Thanks all.



Well, we gave it another try this evening. No luck



We blocked the front of the truck up as suggested, about 8 inches, to make sure oil from the pump would not run down the shaft.



We sprayed it down well with brake cleaner and then dried it with compressed air. Used the puller bolts to wiggle the gear around as suggested. Used the little hose that comes with the brake cleaner to make sure we were squirting between the shaft and gear. The guy helping me is an aircraft mechanic (works on helicopter turbine engines) so he knows what he is doing.



We sprayed and dried, sprayed and dried, sprayed and dried. Must have been at least 5 times. Used an angled air gun with a pointed tip to get right in between the shaft and the gear. The gear would produce a nice ring to it when it tapped the shaft. His assessment was that was a good sign. Any oil would produce a dull, muted sound. We then torqued it down in two sequences using a calibrated MAC torque wrench to 170 lbs.



We buttoned it up and started it. It idled quite nicely. However, as it did last evening, all we had to do was slowly start to run up the throttle and not far off idle it began to blubber and stumble and smoke a lot. :{ We couldn't believe it! Apparently no real effort at all to make it slip.



Now we're pretty much at a loss. It makes no sense. Particularly since his seems to be holding just fine since setting his last Saturday (we'll check it one of these days soon to see if it's creeping). The only thing we can think of is there is some sort of contamination between the gear and the shaft that can't be sprayed out. The only option now, I guess, is to get a seal kit and gasket and pull the front cover so we can pull the gear off completely and inspect/clean properly.



I think we'll go back to 160 ft-lbs on the next torque-down. The higher number doesn't seem to be helping and I don't need to ruin the pump shaft.



I'm still hoping for better idea, but I think we've exhausted about everything. Any thing further you might have based on tonight's experience?



Thanks all for you input.



Also, if anyone wishes to converse on this by phone, PM me. We won't go back in until Saturday morning.



Frustrated,

-Jay

 

[Sled Puller]

Are you sure it is slipping?



Maybe you have misread your timing?

 

[Sled Puller]

Originally posted by JGK

.



We buttoned it up and started it. It idled quite nicely. However, as it did last evening, all we had to do was slowly start to run up the throttle and not far off idle it began to blubber and stumble and smoke a lot. :{ We couldn't believe it! Apparently no real effort at all to make it slip.



-Jay

That is the sentence that confuses me. Never heard of one jump time like that, most times, it is a blast of power that jumps them.





What are you setting the timing at?

 

[wcjp]

Are you using a little red straw that comes with WD-40? If shortened a little it will help direct the brake cleaner to your intended target. Also, after spraying and drying, have you tried going to lunch? Give it some time to air dry. After what you've been through give mothernature a try.

 

[JGK]

Sled Puller,



I'll have to admit, after our experience last night, I questioned that myself. We are setting the timing using the Snap-On dial in the #1 barrel to about 5. 5 to 5. 6 mm of lift, which, according to Piers's chart, is 15. 5 to 16 degrees on the CPL 2175 pump.



On Wednesday afternoon, when it slipped the first time, we put the dial back on the pump and checked it. It was only coming up to 3. something-or-other of lift at TDC. We then reset it and fired it up and experienced the same results - blubbering/stumbling not far off idle. Yesterday evening, on our second go at it, the dial read around 4mm of lift at TDC before we pulled the gear off again.



Here's the process we're using to reset timing: we set the engine at TDC, then put the dial in. We then rotate backward until the dial quits dropping and stabilizes. Then we set the dial to 0 and rotate forward to TDC, watching the gauge to see the lift. Two sets of eyes watching the dial. At TDC it verifies current setting. Then we rotate forward to the desired setting on the dial. Loosen the nut, reset to desired setting (engine back, then forward to TDC), then pull the gear. Then rotate back several degrees before TDC, then forward to TDC. Then clean, and press the gear on and snug the nut a little. Now rotate back, then forward to TDC and check the setting. Then torque it down.



This is all based on the instructions from Fritz's site. Are we missing something? This same process was used on his last Saturday with success.



wcjp,



We haven't been waiting after cleaning/blow drying. Just blow it out good, torque it down, and button it all up. Unfortunately we don't have a heated shop. Just my garage with the door open, in mid-40 degree weather.



Thanks,

-Jay

 

[Joe G.]

Have you checked the lift after the final torque down? I have to "lead" mine a little to get the correct lift because it moves a little as it comes up to the correct torque. I don't "snug the nut a little. Now rotate back, then forward to TDC and check the setting". I set to the correct lift and torque it to spec with no movement between getting the nut snug and torque to correct spec. Plenty of brake cleaner and plenty of air seems to work ok. I live were it is cool and damp all the time. A heated garage would be nice, but mine is not.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

" we set the engine at TDC, then put the dial in. We then rotate backward until the dial quits dropping and stabilizes. "



be sure the dial indicator is still within its travel range, not all the way out. For example, I have mine going from about 15 to about 20 on the little dial while the plunger is lifting as it approaches #1 TDC.



"Then we set the dial to 0 and rotate forward to TDC, watching the gauge to see the lift. Two sets of eyes watching the dial. At TDC it verifies current setting. "



OK



"Then we rotate forward to the desired setting on the dial. Loosen the nut, reset to desired setting (engine back, then forward to TDC), then pull the gear. "



Whoa. Maybe you abbreviated your discussion. . .

Rotate the engine in the normal "forward" direction to the desired plunger lift, after removing the nut. Crack off the gear and verify the lift did not drop--look at the little dial too, not just the big sweep hand. If it dropped, as it usually does, especially when you are using more lift where the ramp is pretty steep, clean the taper, put the gear back on and tighten the nut just a little until it partially collapses the lock washer, no more. Rotate the engine a bit more forward to get to the lift, or desired lift plus a little, maybe . 1 mm. Remove the nut and washer, pop off the gear again. Repeat until you have the gear off and the lift you need.



Then rotate back several degrees before TDC, then forward to TDC. Then clean, and press the gear on and snug the nut a little.



At this point, I put maybe 20 ft lb on the nut.



Now rotate back, then forward to TDC and check the setting. Then torque it down.



OK, once again, I like 140-150 ft lb max.



Also be sure the dial indicator stalk is not jumping around on the ears and valley of the plunger. I make sure the knurled screw is snug on the indicator body, and pull and release the knob at the top of the stalk a couple times to be sure the bottom of the stalk is on a stable place on the plunger.

 

[Strick-9]

Joe gives good advice.



Many times the dial will jump down 2-4° and it happens so fast you don't catch it.



I remembered another tip I've found usefull. I break the nut loose and pop the gear off as one of my first steps. When you are pulling the gear off, it usually jumps off quite violently. That's when you run into problems with the pump jumping to a different timing setting. I pull the gear off first and get the violent POP over with. Then I replace the nut and snug it up just enough to where it will turn the pump over. Now, when you get to the desired lift setting, when you pull the gear off, it glides off much easier with nearly NO chance of jumping time. Another benefit of this method is that very little torque is required to remove the nut once you are at your desired lift. No more problems with the pump rotating backwards as you loosen the nut.



This is VERY effective for when advancing the timing into the 17°-28° range where the pump jumps to a different setting very easily.



The way you describe it stumbling off idle seems weird. Usually, when they slip it is either during cranking or some type of quick acceleration. Dropping it into gear for example or blipping the throttle.



Are you sure it isn't just the cold weather causing the stumble. With the near freezing temperatures around here lately, in the mornings if I crank the engine and immediately try to rev it (first 20-30 seconds) it will definately stumble and miss. Once I get some heat in it though it clears up nicely.



A few other things to mention. Try wiggling the dial indicator in the holder. Does the lift setting change? It should. If you bump the dial indicator accidentally, the probe moves to a different location on the plunger (there's a groove) and your lift setting will change. Be careful not to bump it during all the wrenching.



That could cause your variance in the readings.



It's always good practice to never touch the dial indicator after you set it to zero the first time. After you finish the entire procedure, rotate the engine backwards until the dial stops. Make sure it returns to ZERO again. Now rotate the engine AGAIN to TDC to find your lift before trying to crank the engine.



Also, how are you finding TDC? How are you marking it so you return to the exact same spot each time?



When in doubt either drop a valve or remove the injector and use the piston stop method of finding TDC. It is much more reliable and accurate than the timing pin.



I use a sharp white eyeliner pencil to mark the balancer. It leaves a much thinner line than the paint sticks I used to use.



That's all I can think of for now. Let us know how it turns out.



You've got a lot of good advice coming in from a lot of experienced mechanics. This is turning into a nice little How-To article.



-Chris

 

[drees1]

It's easy enough to check the timing after everything is torqued up and again after you think it slipped to verify that it did slip. You may not hit it exactly where you wanted it, but it should repeat very very close on consecutive measurements.



If you have been through all of what you say, you should pull the cover and gear to find out what has happened. There may be some crud mashed on the shaft or gear from the first time and it won't wash off. You do not want to score the taper of the gear or shaft, so I would not try cleaning any more. With the cover off the problem should be apparent. And if it was just poor quality cleaner, all the better, you will sleep well knowing nothing is serious, and you can clean it as best as possible. The taper has a tolerance on both shaft and gear and sometimes it may be a borderline situation. Do not upset the factory surface finish in any manor on the gear or shaft. If you do find a spec of something embeded in shaft or gear, you can dress out that area only. If you go below the surface in a small area to clean it up that is ok. You want to avoid any areas that stand proud above the surface.

 

[JGK]

Joe and Strick-9,



Thank you so much for your input. This is good stuff! I will attemp to address some of your comments without getting too long-winded (I do that sometimes).



Regarding initially stabilizing the dial to "zero" to verify the current timing - yes, we are starting with the dial reading between 6 and 8 mm of lift so it doesn't go below 0.



You are correct, Joe, my explanation was necessarily brief. Essentially, we are doing as you said, though not exactly step-for-step. We rotate up to where we want it to be, pop the nut, check/adjust as needed to get back to desired lift, then pop the gear. It does jump a little, but not bad. If needed, we snug it back on lightly and reset (backward, then forward to TDC in all cases to reset to desired lift). The gear and nut come off surprisingly easily now that they've both been popped off initially on Wednesday (more on that in a moment).



I did notice on one occassion when setting up the dial that it did find high and low points on the plunger, as both of you mentioned. I made sure the knurled screw was snug and the dial was stable in it's holder. I will do as you suggested and pull up on the stalk to make sure it is seated correctly tomorrow.



Once we've "zeroed" the dail and moved up to our desired setting, we don't touch it again. However, we'll check the stalk for proper seating on the plunger. I will also rotate back about a 1/4 on the crank to ensure the dial is still dropping to our "zero" setting just before we torque down the nut the final time.



We found TDC by screwing down the valve adjuster on the exhaust on #1 about 5 turns and rotated until the piston tapped up against it. My friend had his finger on the rocker to feel them meet. We had masking tape on the damper and marked it with a straight edge and pen when the piston contacted the valve going forward and backward. Then found the mid point to the nearest 1/2mm. I then scratched a perpendicular line on the damper using a small metal precision wood-worker's square and an awl right through the tape, then removed the tape. A stiff piece of welding wire under an oil pan bolt sharpened to a point is my pointer. I have a second TDC reference mark placed on the damper by Wentland Diesel when they bench tested the pump. This is my second-check reference mark. I'm comfortable with my TDC location.



As to temperature, when we start it, we let it idle for a minute or two before working the throttle. Again, we're doing this in 45 degree weather. I don't think temperature is a significant factor.



As to the issue of it slipping so easily... I wrote an e-mail to Al and Piers this morning explaining this problem (I'd spoken to Al on the phone yesterday). Piers called me back. He said he only experienced this once, but the symptoms were virtually identical. He said he believes the gear is not going on the shaft squarely. He said it is possible to torque it down to spec with it cocked a little. But apparently, as soon as the engine torque hits it, it squares up and slips. This happend to him three times in a row on one truck. His final solution was, after snugging the nut to 20 or 30 lbs, to put the socket on the nut up against the gear and smack it with a 3 or 4 lb hammer. You can't hit it too hard 'cause there's not much room. Then he torqued it down to spec. Worked like a charm for him.



He asked if we noticed that removing the nut and gear after it slipped seemed to be much easier than expected. Yup. He said he noticed that too. So I think we'll bang it once.



And we won't be torqing it beyond 160. We will also use the calibrated wrench. Joe's experience with a stripped shaft is not something I want to deal with.



OK. This is longer than desired. I'll let you know how it went after tomorrow. One thing about this, we're going to know some of the pitfalls of this procedure by the time we're done!



Oh, and I did pick up a seal kit and gasket, just in case we have to "go in". I'm hoping I get to return them on Monday.



Thank you all again for your time.



-Jay