Sheared crank pulley bolts

[Nordby]

My friend Dave has a 2004, 3500, quad, dually 4x4, that was throwing the CKS code P0336 (I think, from memory). He took it to the dealer to have it checked out - turns out a previous service at the dealer they had not tightened down the bolts that hold that front pully onto the crank. 2 of the 4 sheered off, the other two were loose, hence the erratic readings on the sensor.



They kept his truck for about a month, no kidding, and instead of replacing the crank like they said they would, they drilled and helicoiled the 2 sheared bolts.



Fast forward to yesterday - They are near Amarillo, traveling with horses between OKC and Santa Fe, and the trucks starts running funny. Same code, they check the crank bolts - 1 is missing, 3 are loose. They tighten up and keep going - end the trip with 1 bolt holding firm, and another that is stripped so they couldn't torque it down. One is gone, the other is so stripped it eventually falls out too.



This guy is a horse trainer, and lives by towing horses to shows, sales, vets. He needs this fixed correctly and reliably. The dealer is talking about doing the same bandaid fix on it and is really being sticky about honoring the warranty and an issue caused by them in the first place.



Anyone else have this issue, or heard of it? What sort of long term issues should he expect with this engine - endplay, or weak crank, or other integrity problems? Should he start climbing the DC service hierarchy and talk to regional reps, etc?



Thanks TDR,

jon.

 

[Mark1si]

Time for a new dealer!!! They should fix it right the first time.

 

[WUnderwood]

man oh man, I would be hot. he must be a patient man, I say find another dealer/stealership, or take it up with the regional manager

 

[Cummins724]

man oh man, I would be hot. he must be a patient man, I say find another dealer/stealership, or take it up with the regional manager

Yes in deed... . another dealer for sure. That is unbelievable..... they are just trying to get by until they can say sorry, but your warranty has expired. The main reason that they are coming loose from the get go is probably a out of balance harmonic balancer making vibrations.

 

[JFaughn]

If the balancer got that much misuse it probubly spun on the rubber ,
Time to call a lawyer , I've done that before but I gave the costumer the opption , a quick cheap fix [ no warentee ] or the right fix , he took the quick & dirty , but the truck came to me with that problem , I did not make the problem , its still going [ over ten yrs. ]

 

[jelag]

There should be nothing wrong with a thread insert if done correctly and the proper installation procedure is followed... . that said... it must not have been done correctly...



I can only assume this was done under warranty and its DC calling the shots not the dealer... I've installed and used a lot of inserts over the years. . but never have used a double oversize... . they do make them... I don't think I'd do this on a crankshaft...



And of course the proper thread loc would be needed... . But to be honest from my point of view... if you went to a Cummins dealer,,,,, I'd let him do that to my truck... or we'd do it in house out of warranty... . on my truck... . I'd never let someone who's never done this before do it for me... .



Just my thoghts...

 

[sag2]

As Jelag said there is nothing wrong with the repair assuming it is done correctly. Would not be my first choice because of the stress of the component, but thread repair is done all the time, especially considering it is a $1600 part and over 10 hours labor at $110 an hour. But now the crank is most likely ruined and will require a replacement. The part is not on STAR restriction so the dealer would not even have to get the replacement authorized. Also interesting is the new part is less expensive (dealer net) than the reman. Time to take it to the nearest big dealer and have it repaired.

Also kind of rare for the bolts to come loose in the first place, especially with some miles on the engine. Is there more to the story we don't know about?

 

[Nordby]

Thanks guys, appreciate the info, and yep, another dealer is about his only option. The one in Albuquerque caused the problem. They didn't want to fix it. The dealer in Santa Fe did the faulty heli-coil, and are now balking at the real fix. The regional service rep is in Santa Fe yesterday afternoon and today. They were supposed to call him. They didn't. His attempts to talk with service put him on hold 4 times... . We'll see what happens this morning.



Yes, Dave is patient, but time for him to quit being patient. Not more to the story that I know of. The truck was used, so something prior could have come up, about 90K on it now. The Dealer in Albuquerque had to pull the crank pully for some other fix and didn't put a key or pin back in is the story I get. I am speculating it is a key that holds the crank pully in position on the end of the crank? Or since it bolts on is there no key there and it was just lack of proper torque on those crank pulley bolts?



Anyhow, the fight is on. More when I know it. One option certainly is to bring it up here (near Denver) and find a shop to fix it under warranty. The regional service rep who is down there is apparently from Denver - so bringing it up here may not help.



I have Dave documenting every phone call, every time he is on hold, how long, every piece of work done on the truck, how long it took, etc. so he has a timeline for a lawyer to work with. Turns out I misspoke in the first email too - dealer had it 8 weeks to improperly helicoil the fix. Unreal. Since there was no loaner, dave was borrowing trucks (ours, and some other folks) to keep running his business.



I'll update this thread if I hear more today.

jon

 

[JHardwick]

There should be nothing wrong with a thread insert if done correctly and the proper installation procedure is followed... . that said... it must not have been done correctly...

I agree, after 20 years of machining, I've seen many applications that required a thread insert as a new part. Either heli-coiled or Keen-serted.

 

[Nordby]

Update is - the regional service manager is trying to be helpful. They are going to apply the helicoil fix again, gulp. They believe the harmonic balancer was not replaced the last time (holes ovaled out? dunno), and caused everything to loosen up again. Sounds fair enough, and they promise to expedite the fix for him. Also sounds fair enough.



Just shouldn't have been 8 weeks the first fix that was not even done correctly, and they should have driven out to Amarillo to get him and his horses on Sunday for messing it up. Much less put up a fuss when he nurses it back home, shows up, and needs it fixed again. Bizarre.



The big 3 (and I'm sure probably all dealers of Toyota, Nissan, etc) sure seem to be trying real hard to avoid warranty work. They are likely incented to avoid performing the work, as it costs $$$'s. Wonder how to flip that model around so they are incented to bend over backwards for customers again...



thanks again folks, If anything interesting from this round of fixing, I'll update again! They said by Friday (he needs it for a 400 mile pull to a show).



later

jon.

 

[nickleinonen]

I agree, after 20 years of machining, I've seen many applications that required a thread insert as a new part. Either heli-coiled or Keen-serted.

yep. . the ge fdl engines i work on have helicoils and keenserts in them from factory. . the air intake manifolds have helicoils in them [SS helicoil in cast alloy manifold box] and the engine block has keenserts in the cylinder jacket hold down bolt holes. .



we use gardserts in the emd engines for quick repairs [drill hole, use impact gun to run insert into unthreadded hole. .



inserts can work very well if done properly [a helicoil thread is stronger than a thread cut in materal alone]

 

[Cummins724]

Do they make a set of the inserts for a chevy 350 crank to fit the crank bolt? Not to change the subject, but I searched for a part like that & couldn't find one.

 

[nickleinonen]

i don't know about the chevy engines [or any gasser engines?] but inserts are avalable to fix just about anything. . what size is the bolt? how far oversize does the insert need to be?

 

[betterthanstock]

Update is - the regional service manager is trying to be helpful. They are going to apply the helicoil fix again, gulp. They believe the harmonic balancer was not replaced the last time (holes ovaled out? dunno), .

Could it be the previous owner did the "tone wheel mod" ? Improper torque... .

 

[Cummins724]

I'm not sure of all that, but its a friend of mine who had this problem & he doesn't have the money to change the crank over. I'd do the work for free if he could, but maybe this is more in his price range. The engine runs great & this would be a awesome help for this guy. Where would I even look for this at?

 

[JHardwick]

Do they make a set of the inserts for a chevy 350 crank to fit the crank bolt? Not to change the subject, but I searched for a part like that & couldn't find one.

I think that's a 1/2-20, maaaybe 5/8-18

 

[Nordby]

Cummins724, I'd pick up the phone and call the Chrysler Dealer in Santa Fe and ask the service department, since they have a truck in there that they are doing this to at the moment. Not sure how else to find this info - must be hiding somewhere in a service dept "how-to" guide. Perhaps check some non-diesel Ram forums, or other trucks, as they almost all have crank pulley's and balancers.



My guess is you just need to find the right parts (helicoil/insert) and new bolts spec'd to grade. My guess is Henderson, or other lines of grade hardware, could set you up with grade 8 spec'd parts and just use them. Trick is to get these to torque spec, and not throw off the balance of the crank/parts, and keep all those shavings out of bad places...

 

[Nordby]

I continued the history of this tonight in a new thread - felt it needed to be its own story about this problem persisting and the dealer failing to fix it -now refusing to.



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180173