shop markups

[DannyW]

I have an NV5600 with 295K on the clock, and I want to put in a fresh unit from Standard. I tend to do all my own maintenance, but dropping a transmission is beyond my capability. I'm not proficient in dealing with big shops, so I don't know what to expect in the realm of markups. If I get a price from Standard, should I be able to take that into the local truck expert and get their quote for nothing beyond labor hours? Or do most of the big shops with the good mechanics try to tack on their own markup over Standard's price.

 

[AEdelheit]

Every shop I have worked at or dealt with adds 30% to anything that comes in, I would talk with the shop a head of time. I would also ask Standard if they work with any shops in your area as that would be easier.

 

[GCroyle]

As AEdelheit stated, he offered good advice talk to shop first or trans supplier.

The best analogy I have is when you go to a nice restaurant you don’t hand the waiter a cooler with steaks in it.

Shops want markup on parts and being backed up by supplier, warranty etc.

Other issue is any freshening up of clutch while trans is out.

 

[Wayne M.]

Indeed a touchy subject, as GCroyle eloquently pointed out. You don’t bring your own eggs to a diner, BUT if you’re bringing something as special as a 56honey done by a specialist, the shop owner may just go along with the job. A good shop eager for work should go along with it.
What will you do for a clutch?

 

[DannyW]

I had an OE Luk unit installed about 40K ago, but I think they must have goofed something up. I drove away with a launch shudder that I never had before...like maybe they didn't clean the new flywheel. Still kicking myself for not making them fix it. I recently installed a new hydraulic rig, and it did help some, but not entirely. My engine is stock, and I can't put in something with a higher pedal force (arthritic feet), so if needed it will just get another Luk. I got 257k out of the original, and it actually still had a lot of meat on it, but the throwout bearing died.

 

[petersonj]

I have an NV5600 with 295K on the clock, and I want to put in a fresh unit from Standard.

I am curious as to why you want to replace your NV5600. I have 335,000 miles on mine and the thought of replacing it now hasn't even crossed my mind. Are you having some problems with your transmission?

I also replaced my clutch (at 297,000 miles) with a LUK OEM clutch assembly and flywheel. The new clutch is still very smooth and I have RV275 injectors with a mild Smarty S03 tune. I am still on the original hydraulics. I am sorry to hear that you don't have a smooth clutch with your LUK replacement.

- John

 

[DannyW]

My NV5600 has acted since Day 1 like the synchros are very weak. It's always been difficult to get into reverse....have to bump the stick against the 5th gear gate, then it will pop into reverse. Also, when I knock it out of gear on a long coast to a red light or other slowdown, and if I get the clear to GO while I still have headway, I cannot simply depress the pedal and push the stick into the appropriate gear. The synchro will not get the input shaft up to the right speed with the clutch pedal down, so I have to rev the engine and double clutch it to spin the input shaft back up. And when it's below about 40F, the transmission gets out of sync on the 1st to 2nd shift unless I do it very quickly.....else I have to do an aggressive double clutch and catch the input shaft on its way back down. My old NV4500 shifted like butter compared to this thing. And before anyone asks, I've always run Amsoil MTF in it.

 

[GCroyle]

DannyW,

SOME elements that affect clutch release and operator feel of shifting.

1. Input shaft dragging on or being turned by the pilot bearing.
2. Clutch disc not able to slide freely on input shaft during shifts.
3. Plate lift is not up to specs, still not freely releasing disc.
4. If clutch has been replaced, R&R skill level and attention to detail.

1 and 2 have a close relationship to clutch service life. The OE needle bearing pilot only has X amount of grease in it. When it gets consumed, input shaft can drag. Crud dust etc builds up on input shaft splines disc doesn't slide freely, drags. 4. This is an entire book.

Plate lift is only about .040"-.045" total. If hydros are weak, you don't get full lift, clutch drags. Hydro's can be evaluated for air. YES YOU CAN!

Many other factors are possible but details of truck would be of interest. Mileage, clutch R&R, type of clutch.

Gary

 

[Prairie Dog]

All of that sounds pretty similar to what I have always experienced with mine (122K now). I've been told it's a big trans and they tend to act that way.
Seems like it knows what it's doing and enjoys picking the worst time to misbehave. I'll admit that on some occasions I will just jamb it into gear on starts but I know I will pay for that some day.
Mine has also always been hard to get into reverse. I never even try to go straight in R anymore and the 1-2 thing is touchy as well. It seems to work fine if I have a trailer in tow and it's warm but empty, it's finicky.
I never get it into really cold weather but even when it's in the low 30's, 1 to 2 is real notchy.
Of course, it's hard to determine the severity of the problem. While your's sounds similar to mine, maybe it's a lot worse in every way.

FWIW, I was able to get a discount on my replacement South Bend clutch (returning customer) and the shop had no problem with me supplying my own parts. Shop charged me $400 for the swap.


Scott

 

[DannyW]

So is it possible that a fresh unit from Standard will have similar driveability problems?? Is it possible/advantageous to replace it with a G56?

 

[Prairie Dog]

Your NV5600 is a far more stout trans and the change over is not straight forward.
I would take it to a trans shop and see what they think of the way it drives before replacing anything.

Also, does the clutch release with the pedal close to the floor? If so then your hydraulics are suspect.
Mine failed around 110000.

Scott

 

[DannyW]

I remember doing a similar test years ago just out of curiosity. What are the basic steps / acceptance criteria for that clutch release test?

When I recently replaced the hydraulics, I was surprised at how much preload the slave puts on the throwout bearing. I always had the impression that the bearing had little to no load on it with the pedal up. I had a hard time pushing the slave far enough in to get the nuts started. I installed a Perfection Clutch hydraulic rig from RockAuto.

 

[GCroyle]

DannyW,

TV's don't have vacuum tubes anymore either.

True freeplay went out in the early 80's with old mechanical release systems.

For discussion purposes all modern pass car and PU's have the release bearing turning continuously with engine RPM. Engine is turning, bearing is turning.

The bearing also has preload applied to it via a spring inside the slave cylinder pushing on the seal->piston->pushrod->fork->bearing->diaphragm spring tips. The bearing is always on the diaphragm spring tips.

Show and tell time. Clutch installed on engine. Install transmission COMPLETELY. Now take a new slave cyl only (still has the shipping straps holding pushrod retracted) install into trans like normal.

With the above demo install you just established the clutch release bearing preload. The hydraulic system isn't even complete and it's (preload) there.

If the shipping straps are not holding the piston/pushrod back you just have a bit more push distance to get things bolted up. No big deal.

If you report that it was requiring Herculean strength to get nuts started then question is is the master cylinder installed completely including pushrod to pedal and the pedal is slightly pushing the pushrod in a bit? If so, then you were trying to move fluid back into reservoir but the return port was closed cause clutch pedal was down.

The way I test these hydros. First finger tip only assessment of hydro's. Two finger tips push pedal. Observe how far PUSHROD travels before you feel pressure being created. Stock NV5600 hydro's 1/8" stock G56 hydro's can be about 3/16" due to extra clip connections and a doohickey in the system just above the slave cyl.

Now for the money shot on hydro's. Requires steering wheel puller and 5/16" by about 2 1/2-3" long, nuts, washers. Remove slave cylinder. Remove pushrod and dust boot, set aside. NO ONE TOUCHES CLUTCH PEDAL YET. Attach puller to slave cyl flange, centering screw in cyl, snug up bolts, turn screw in to contact piston then turn in another 1/2-3/4" or so.

Support on cyl and puller on underbody of truck.

Now, push clutch pedal with TWO FINGERS (not your foot) and very carefully measure MC pushrod travel distance to starting to create pressure. Observe several times. Seriously measure this cause if you guess or swag might as well not do the test at all. We don't need to use foot to feel air bubble in this system and if you stomp on hydro's, well I guess you find what breaks next.

This master cyl design burns up less than 1/8" piston travel to go from relaxed zero PSI to tappet closed and pressure creation mode. Greater than 1/8" = air in system. If so, let me know and I can walk you how to BURP the system.

Clutch release test.

Engine running, push pedal to floor, give it a 2-3 count, select gear, should click into gear like normal.

Engine running, clutch pedal on floor normal, trans in 1st, no brakes applied, no fueling, slowly lift pedal observing for the moment truck starts to pull and how far in inches pedal came off of the floor to start pulling. Varies a bit but 1 1/2-2" reserve travel is a decent amount. Absolutely should not start pulling as soon as you start to lift pedal or even worse as you release brakes.

Gary

 

[DannyW]

Excellent detail. I"ll go check that release point tomorrow. Thanks.

And that jogged my memory. On my new slave, the shipping straps wouldn't stay engaged during installation. They were not under enough tension to avoid being pushed out of their notches as I maneuvered the slave into position. So they were not acting to compress the internal spring. I had to compress the spring while engaging the pocket in the fork and getting the slave onto the studs.

 

[DannyW]

For what it's worth, I just got off the phone with Standard. They don't stock ready-to-go rebuilds.....not enough cores. Same thing with the G56.

 

[GCroyle]

DannyW,

Care to contact Blumenthals in OKC?

Gary

http://www.blumenthalmfg.com/

 

[DannyW]

I used their online submission form last week....no reply. Worth a phone call?

 

[GCroyle]

Cant hurt and let them know no response.