Should We Be Stocking Up On CI-4 Oil?

[rbattelle]

The latest issue of Diesel Progress has a nice article on the upcoming CJ-4 diesel oil standard. It didn't sound good to me at all. Apparently, this particular oil has been difficult to engineer. In particular, the things that I didn't like were:



-Lower TBN than current oils. I think this relates to the ability of the oil to hold contaminants (someone correct me... I don't have the article in front of me now).

-15-20% increase in cost



The only "good" thing I could get from the new oil was a reduction in ash production for the small amount that seeps past the rings and gets burned. I figure maybe that's good for common rail injectors.



So I'm now considering buying up enough CI-4 to last me 10 years (I figure that would be about 45 cases). I'm assuming CI-4 will not be available once the CJ-4 comes out.



What do you all think?



-Ryan

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I stocked up with 3 cases of the latest, Moly containing Delo 400 - enough to last me about 5 years at current annual oil change intervals.



I too was unimpressed with the specs on the "improved" stuff about to hit the market...

 

[bmoeller]

TBN stands for Total Base Number. The higher the number, the better. Lets you know how well the oil can neutralize acids.

 

[Tony T.]

What is the reason for the change anyway. The CI-4 came out summer of 04 or at least that was my first knowledge of it with the new Delo 400 15w/40 that I use. I had considered stocking up anyway since I noticed the price has increased the last couple of times I purchased three gallons for a oil change.



Tony

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

What is the reason for the change anyway. The CI-4 came out summer of 04 or at least that was my first knowledge of it with the new Delo 400 15w/40 that I use. I had considered stocking up anyway since I noticed the price has increased the last couple of times I purchased three gallons for a oil change.



Tony

As I see it, it's yet another case of EPA requiring changes regardless of potential degradation of engine longevity/reliability in favor of supposed emission improvements - much like the gasoline "improvements" some years back that caused MANY fuel system problems in engines at that time...

 

[mberry]

Isn't keeping oil that long (5+ years) a bad thing? What is the shelf life of mineral based oil? Amsoil told me directly that theirs was only good for about 2 years and that it really isn't the oil, it's the additives in it that go bad. So 10 years on the shelf, the oil might last you 10 miles? Doesn't sound like a good idea to me.



And just so we are clear, I completely understand your reasoning for wanting to do this.

 

[Casey Ray]

Making Amsoil sound like an alternate source.



Casey

 

[David Oxland]

TBN "The higher the better" not necessarily true. TBN 's too high can and have a corrosive effect in themselves. The TBN have probably been lowered by the maker in response to the lowering of sulpher in fuels and therefore the potential for acid formation lowers. TBN "total Base Number" is the adding of an base(opposite of acid) in a proportion that will neutralize acid. In engnes that are burning fuels with very high sulphur levels the TBN of lubes will be very high in the lubes chosen and if the suphourous fuel stops being burned then corrosion from the TBN starts. it's a matter of balance. Not likely a conspiracy

 

[rbattelle]

Isn't keeping oil that long (5+ years) a bad thing? What is the shelf life of mineral based oil?

Excellent point, I hadn't considered this.



I don't think there's any conspiracy here. I just think that the new standard required for compliance with EPA regulations will result in a lower quality product that costs more.



-Ryan

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

While I don't have an authoritative source at hand, I personally doubt the sealed, unopened containers of lube oils will suffer any significant degradation within a 5 year period - in a crankcase, yeah, perhaps - but in the original sealed container, I doubt it...

 

[Cooker]

Of the oil jobbers I have spoke with over the years most have suggested a 2-3 year shelf life of unopened oil.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Seems there is no "standard" for unused oil storage, and even the refiners themselves vary greatly in their estimates of unused oil shelf life.



From the "Oil Guy" site:



""Technically, engine oils have shelf lives of four to five years. "



And then what? It will rot?



Even though I'm not a chemist, my understanding is that there are not too many organic components in the oils composition to start deteriorating with time. Especially in the purer fully synthetic ones.

I also believe that there are very few possibilities for moisture to enter a tightly sealed plastic oil container.



Notice that the oil websites don't give you any definitive reasons on exactly what in the oil itself would render it out of spec after the long periods of storage.

Those limited storage disclaimers sound like the lawyers talk.



BTW, according to kreativ this is what Castrol and Valvoline had to say on the subject:



Castrol's response:



There is no shelf life for Castrol Motor Oil, however we would suggest that for maximum protection and performance, the product be used within 5 years of the date of manufacture. Regardless of the storage conditions, moisture can get into the product via osmosis through the plastic.



Valvoline's response:



The Valvoline Company does not have a documented shelf life exposure on finished motor oil.

We would expect under optimal conditions that the product would be stable for an extended period of time. "



... Let your conscience be your guide...

 

[amsoilman]

What is the reason for the change anyway. The CI-4 came out summer of 04 or at least that was my first knowledge of it with the new Delo 400 15w/40 that I use. I had considered stocking up anyway since I noticed the price has increased the last couple of times I purchased three gallons for a oil change.



Tony

The reason for the change in oil has to do with the Engines amd how thier designed an built. This isn't a new thing as it has been happening all along.



If you recall, each time restrictions are placed on the manufactures for emission requirements, the oils have to be upgraded so the oils can do their job!



As too Diesels there was API CA, CB, CC, CD, CD-II, CE, CF-4 CG-4 CH-4,

CI-4 and currently CI-4+, which will fill the gap until the CJ-4 oils become available. I believe the CI-4 you mention above came out in 2002 to address EGR.

It just so happens the engines that are being designed for the upcoming low sulphur fuels (2007 models) will put a greater demand on the engine oil because of combustion and injection characteristics; ie. multable injections per power stroke, and higher fuel pressures that attomize the fuel.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The reason for the change in oil has to do with the Engines amd how thier designed an built. This isn't a new thing as it has been happening all along.



If you recall, each time restrictions are placed on the manufactures for emission requirements, the oils have to be upgraded so the oils can do their job!



As too Diesels there was API CA, CB, CC, CD, CD-II, CE, CF-4 CG-4 CH-4,

CI-4 and currently CI-4+, which will fill the gap until the CJ-4 oils become available. I believe the CI-4 you mention above came out in 2002 to address EGR.

It just so happens the engines that are being designed for the upcoming low sulphur fuels (2007 models) will put a greater demand on the engine oil because of combustion and injection characteristics; ie. multable injections per power stroke, and higher fuel pressures that attomize the fuel.



Wayne

amsoilman

All that may be true, Wayne, but the BIG question is, is there a PRICE in terms of engine protection in OLDER diesel engines that eventually will be forced to use oils formulated for newer ones?



In reading I have done on the subject, it would appear that changes taking effect to accommodate EPA and NEWER engines MIGHT place previous engines at risk in some areas of overall lubrication characteristics - minor perhaps, but at risk just the same...



Comments?



I remember only too well the $800 worth of damage to my '85 Corvette fuel system that was caused by the gas formulation changes some years back - the EPA was well aware of those potential and predicted problems, and essentially said, "We know there will be potentially costly problems to consumers caused by these changes, but we really don't give a damn... "



Are we looking at the same thing with the new oil changes?

 

[Jdonoghue]

I remember only too well the $800 worth of damage to my '85 Corvette fuel system that was caused by the gas formulation changes some years back - the EPA was well aware of those potential and predicted problems, and essentially said, "We know there will be potentially costly problems to consumers caused by these changes, but we really don't give a damn... "



Are we looking at the same thing with the new oil changes?

I've often wondered how closely tied the EPA is to the 'tree hugger' special interests. Perhaps they knew about the effects of the fuel reformulation, and saw it as a way to force older vehicles off the road. I can't count the number of cars I saw burned up on the side of the road shortly after the new gasoline went into use. The EPA doesn't seem to care much about anything except it's own agenda, regardless of it's effect on safety and the economy. As far as the new oil goes, I expect it to be more expensive, have a shorter life (more frequent oil changes), and have a negative effect on my engines. If it proves me wrong, great, but I have witnessed too much of the EPA's self-serving actions to expect anything else.

 

[amsoilman]

All that may be true, Wayne, but the BIG question is, is there a PRICE in terms of engine protection in OLDER diesel engines that eventually will be forced to use oils formulated for newer ones?



In reading I have done on the subject, it would appear that changes taking effect to accommodate EPA and NEWER engines MIGHT place previous engines at risk in some areas of overall lubrication characteristics - minor perhaps, but at risk just the same...



Comments?



I remember only too well the $800 worth of damage to my '85 Corvette fuel system that was caused by the gas formulation changes some years back - the EPA was well aware of those potential and predicted problems, and essentially said, "We know there will be potentially costly problems to consumers caused by these changes, but we really don't give a damn... "



Are we looking at the same thing with the new oil changes?

Gary,

Everything I have read and been told by some that are supposedly in the know, claim the new oils will have to be "Backward" compatible with earlier Diesel engines. It is going to be a real challenge for the oil engineers because the additives are significantly different, that will be needed to address the low sulphur. Think about this. The EPA has mandated 15 PPM of sulphur content by October 2006, (one year away) and the current sulphur content in highway fuel is at 500 PPM! They have got to come up with some real chemical technology to do that!



On the gasolene issue you speak of, I remember in my area a few years back, a Flying J tanker dumped a load of Diesel fuel in with the gasolene tank. A few days went by and hundreds of people had issues with their fuel pumps causing the engines to stop dead! When investigated, they found the problem, and Flying J had to buy new pumps and have them installed plus the fuel that was ruined and any and all problems created from it! It cost them ALOT of money!







Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Tony T.]

Gary,

Everything I have read and been told by some that are supposedly in the know, claim the new oils will have to be "Backward" compatible with earlier Diesel engines. It is going to be a real challenge for the oil engineers because the additives are significantly different, that will be needed to address the low sulphur. Think about this. The EPA has mandated 15 PPM of sulphur content by October 2006, (one year away) and the current sulphur content in highway fuel is at 500 PPM! They have got to come up with some real chemical technology to do that!











Wayne

amsoilman

Hum! ("scratching head" ) I'm no oil engineer, but we are using the ULSD 15ppm (looks just like water and foams very little from what I've seen) diesel fuel at work (govt' that is),and have been since Sept 04. We are not using any special kind of oil that I know of other than whats available in todays market. I'm not trying to be a smart *****, but sorry I don't get it.



or





Are you saying that with the new formulated CJ oil in the works and ULSD combination in older diesel engines if not formulated correctly could be hazardous to the engines life due to there additive package. If this is the case why not specify this new oil in say 07 up vehicles, and not recommended for older vehicles. Kinda like they do with the ATF fluids and let us keep our CI and CI+ we have now.



Tony

 

[rbattelle]

Thought I'd bring this back up as we creep closer to CJ-4 release. I still don't look forward to the switch.



Article



Ryan

 

[Greenleaf]

The new oil is to be superior to the old oil, this according to Shell. Shell also will stop marketing the CI-4plus in quart and gallons. They will continue for a period of time to sell CI-4 plus in pails and drums untill the market drops off for said oil. I inagine the other oil manufacturers will be in the same boat.



Also, a new oil is now being formulated of the 2010 emissions engines. Oo.



I have the Shell web site which contains specs on the new CJ-4 as well as FAQ. I' will locate that and post it up.



It dosn't sound like we have anything to worry about. I manage a fleet of school buses and this hits home much more to me than a guy with one Cummins Diesel.



Just go to www.rotella.com This will get you into the new oil articles and FAQ

Enjoy. It will ease some of your concerns.



GL

 

[rbattelle]

The article in the latest issue of TDR, which was well written, has me confused. It suggests CI-4 will continue to be available at least through 2009.



Is this a realistic expectation?



How realistic is it to expect places like Pep Boys (where I get my oil now) or Scheid or Advance (or wherever) to start stocking both CI-4 and CJ-4?



Seems to me 99% of retailers will switch over to CJ-4 as their only offering. If so, what do us suckers do?



Ryan