The Soviet's declaration of support has become another empty promise. After stating they will support us in our quest to end terrorism, they tell us that they will not allow us to launch a military assault on Afghanistan from the north.
Doc
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So Much For Russian Support
- Thread starter Doc Tinker
- Start Date
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The Soviet's declaration of support has become another empty promise. After stating they will support us in our quest to end terrorism, they tell us that they will not allow us to launch a military assault on Afghanistan from the north.
Doc
What else is new
I'm not surprised by that, or the other countries that are starting to hedge on their commitments. We need to be willing to go this alone, if necessary. We're the only country that can do that.
I'm not surprised by that, or the other countries that are starting to hedge on their commitments. We need to be willing to go this alone, if necessary. We're the only country that can do that.
Dumb-*** politics
We ALWAYS go it alone!! And guess what'll happen? Washington will spend $500 million to blow them up, then give them another $300million to rebuild! Im just sick about the government waste... and our roads are still a disgrace while they waste MY MONEY on HUD housing, free cheese, food stamps, immigrant welfare... . sorry, but when my grandparents came over from Germany, they had to learn the language and make do without government subsidies. Things are different now.
We ALWAYS go it alone!! And guess what'll happen? Washington will spend $500 million to blow them up, then give them another $300million to rebuild! Im just sick about the government waste... and our roads are still a disgrace while they waste MY MONEY on HUD housing, free cheese, food stamps, immigrant welfare... . sorry, but when my grandparents came over from Germany, they had to learn the language and make do without government subsidies. Things are different now.
Amen BCFAST!
I don't understand how Russia has authority to forbid a U. S. attack on Afghanistan from the north. I thought Turkmenistien and Uzbekitstien were independent?
~Chris
~Chris
This is where we are going.
Subject: America the Beautiful (an alternate perspective)
I
Here is another, unheard, perspective of this whole mess.
This is written by an Afghani man in response to what he sees on TV.
----- Original Message -----
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age. " Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would
mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
whether we "have the belly to do what must be done. " And I thought
about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from
Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind
that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree
that something must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps. "
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would
exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out
the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it
already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut
them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did
all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs.
Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's
Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move
around. They'd slip away and hide.
Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't
move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul
and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals
who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common
cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been
raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do
what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly
to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the
sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just
because some Americans would die fighting their way through
Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.
Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan
would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You
see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and
the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world
into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west
wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with
nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of
view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever
that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would
die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
In Peace,
Tamim Ansary
Subject: America the Beautiful (an alternate perspective)
I
Here is another, unheard, perspective of this whole mess.
This is written by an Afghani man in response to what he sees on TV.
----- Original Message -----
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
Stone Age. " Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would
mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
whether we "have the belly to do what must be done. " And I thought
about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from
Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind
that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree
that something must be done about those monsters.
But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps. "
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would
exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out
the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.
We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it
already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut
them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did
all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs.
Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's
Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move
around. They'd slip away and hide.
Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't
move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul
and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals
who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common
cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been
raping all this time.
So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in
there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do
what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly
to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral
qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the
sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just
because some Americans would die fighting their way through
Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.
Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan
would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You
see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and
the West.
And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world
into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west
wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with
nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of
view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever
that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would
die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?
Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?
In Peace,
Tamim Ansary
And we are 450000000 Americans who have everything to lose, and therefore, WILL do anything to anyone who has allowed this animal Bin Laden's philosophy to destroy their lives! The difference between Afganistan and us is people with guts, freedom, dreams and ambition. That's us, as in United, Strong and Angry.
Ron
Ron
Maybe
Just maybe we can rid this country of its taliban and let the people of Afgan have it back. Just maybe we can convince the people that we are fighting terrorism not Islam..... Then we may have some allies in country.
Just maybe we can rid this country of its taliban and let the people of Afgan have it back. Just maybe we can convince the people that we are fighting terrorism not Islam..... Then we may have some allies in country.
Trouble is that we can't afford to go it alone. Someone has to watch our backs in case of bordering countries trying to attack us from behind. That's the biggest fear that I have that the countries that say that they'll stand beside us, will do nothing but blindside us when we least expect it.
Sorry guys, there's something that doesn't feel right.
Sorry guys, there's something that doesn't feel right.
Tamim... .
im very happy you posted. i couldnt write it better myself (im too lazy)
im glad we have somebody who knows the real deal
i spent my childhood living in Israel & IRAN. i cannot agree with you more. what scares me is that we are going to send 18 year old rookies to war against hardened veterans,these afgans know the desert,the kicked the russians out with ak47s &RPGs vs tanks & attack helicopters,may god be on our side... ...
im very happy you posted. i couldnt write it better myself (im too lazy)
im glad we have somebody who knows the real deal
i spent my childhood living in Israel & IRAN. i cannot agree with you more. what scares me is that we are going to send 18 year old rookies to war against hardened veterans,these afgans know the desert,the kicked the russians out with ak47s &RPGs vs tanks & attack helicopters,may god be on our side... ...
It's true we are fighting (or about to) terrorism, and those who aid or harbor it. That IS the Teleban, but it IS NOT the poor people who are left in the streets of Afganistan, begging for for food.
The Teleban made it illegal for any woman to work. So, let's say some woman's husband got killed in the last ten years (damn good chance of that too), good luck to her feeding her kids. It's only international aid that's kept those people alive. And that aid is in jeopardy (if not gone) now that the Pakistan boarder is closed. If I recall, it's those people Jesus Christ wants us to help the most. Makes a lot of sense. But, how do we weed-out the bad guys, and take-out just them?
Anybody?
The Teleban made it illegal for any woman to work. So, let's say some woman's husband got killed in the last ten years (damn good chance of that too), good luck to her feeding her kids. It's only international aid that's kept those people alive. And that aid is in jeopardy (if not gone) now that the Pakistan boarder is closed. If I recall, it's those people Jesus Christ wants us to help the most. Makes a lot of sense. But, how do we weed-out the bad guys, and take-out just them?
Anybody?
Maybe the people need to save themselves, like so many of them have already done by evacuating. Once they are out of Afghanistan they will be aided and some might even be relocated to a better life.
Doc
Doc
I don't claim to know the details, but I don't think these folks are in a position to say 'oh yeah, let's get out of here' and head out to the driveway, jump in the Camry, and drive to the next country. The people you refer to who have already left, are the ones with the Camry. They have been gone for a long time. The people who remain are the ones with no husband, no car, no food, and four kids, one of which has no legs because they were blown from her body in recent war.
I digress,
How do we get just the bad guys?
Anybody?
PS The WashingtonPost had some good info on this place today
www.washingtonpost.com
I digress,
How do we get just the bad guys?
Anybody?
PS The WashingtonPost had some good info on this place today
www.washingtonpost.com
I don't claim to know the details, but I don't think these folks are in a position to say 'oh yeah, let's get out of here' and head out to the driveway, jump in the Camry, and drive to the next country. The people you refer to who have already left, are the ones with the Camry. They have been gone for a long time. The people who remain are the ones with no husband, no car, no food, and four kids, one of which has no legs because they were blown from her body in recent war.
I digress,
How do we get just the bad guys?
Anybody?
PS The WashingtonPost had some good info on this place today
www.washingtonpost.com
Here's a specific article that really rings true with what ChampaneFlight started this thread off with.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A46847-2001Sep17.html
I digress,
How do we get just the bad guys?
Anybody?
PS The WashingtonPost had some good info on this place today
www.washingtonpost.com
Here's a specific article that really rings true with what ChampaneFlight started this thread off with.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A46847-2001Sep17.html
Doc,
In the long run we already know that having Russia in our back pocket and being all buddy buddy is going to hurt one day.
We dont really want ot use Turkmenistan anyway. Not really. It might feel good now and ease the fight into Afghan territory. After the fun is over the Russians will know more about us and the way we go about war than I would feel comfortable with. We may get the Russians a little pissed if we succed at this little battle as well. The got tared and feathered in Afghanistan. We will not face the same fate, I assure everyone. The Russians went in half-heartedly and by their own admission expected to out of there in 2 months. We will go in with American to Afghan ratios that teenagers could win with. That war the Russians lost was the Russians fault. Not Afghan might and prowess. Of course the Afghans are not pansies and will surely put up a fight, but things like prestrikes with aircraft, napalm, and an overwhelming number of troops will fix the game, so to speak.
RKelly,
Troops on the ground is the only way to deal with this mess.
Uncle Joe,
It took the Afghan rebels 10 years to kick them out. The rebels had our help as well. They are not that tough. Im not worried about losing to those guys.
Wowsy,
Lay down with dogs, your bound to get fleas. I agree with you about some of the other countries. The arguement they might attack us is a stretch though. I dont think that will happen.
The gut felling you have, we all got it. Something is weird.
BcFast, Gary C,
We are on our own as far as I am concerned as well. Lets get the hell over there, stop all the talks with the rest of them and kill some Afghans. We got poked in the tail. Its time to fight back.
A final thought: If we just stand around here talking and show no actions the world will see us as weak and that we have no resolve to deal with this. We should be on the ground right now running throught the streets shooting Afghans to ribbons. This WTC act is an embarrasment to us. We need to show the rest of the terrorist that we mean business. Fly a plane into a couple or three of our buildings and you will be sorry. So far, we stand around like epicenes, scared to do a damn thing. A lot of us are concerning ourselves with the wrong things and the "what ifs".
What if we get ourselves killed, what if we kill innnocent people, what if the Pakistanis get us from behind? If we are going to stand around and be airplaned and blown the hell up without doing anything about it. We simply do not deserve to be a free nation. Freedom is very costly. Someone, somewhere is always going to be ready to take it away. We need to stand up and fight.
Don~
In the long run we already know that having Russia in our back pocket and being all buddy buddy is going to hurt one day.
We dont really want ot use Turkmenistan anyway. Not really. It might feel good now and ease the fight into Afghan territory. After the fun is over the Russians will know more about us and the way we go about war than I would feel comfortable with. We may get the Russians a little pissed if we succed at this little battle as well. The got tared and feathered in Afghanistan. We will not face the same fate, I assure everyone. The Russians went in half-heartedly and by their own admission expected to out of there in 2 months. We will go in with American to Afghan ratios that teenagers could win with. That war the Russians lost was the Russians fault. Not Afghan might and prowess. Of course the Afghans are not pansies and will surely put up a fight, but things like prestrikes with aircraft, napalm, and an overwhelming number of troops will fix the game, so to speak.
RKelly,
Troops on the ground is the only way to deal with this mess.
Uncle Joe,
It took the Afghan rebels 10 years to kick them out. The rebels had our help as well. They are not that tough. Im not worried about losing to those guys.
Wowsy,
Lay down with dogs, your bound to get fleas. I agree with you about some of the other countries. The arguement they might attack us is a stretch though. I dont think that will happen.
The gut felling you have, we all got it. Something is weird.
BcFast, Gary C,
We are on our own as far as I am concerned as well. Lets get the hell over there, stop all the talks with the rest of them and kill some Afghans. We got poked in the tail. Its time to fight back.
A final thought: If we just stand around here talking and show no actions the world will see us as weak and that we have no resolve to deal with this. We should be on the ground right now running throught the streets shooting Afghans to ribbons. This WTC act is an embarrasment to us. We need to show the rest of the terrorist that we mean business. Fly a plane into a couple or three of our buildings and you will be sorry. So far, we stand around like epicenes, scared to do a damn thing. A lot of us are concerning ourselves with the wrong things and the "what ifs".
What if we get ourselves killed, what if we kill innnocent people, what if the Pakistanis get us from behind? If we are going to stand around and be airplaned and blown the hell up without doing anything about it. We simply do not deserve to be a free nation. Freedom is very costly. Someone, somewhere is always going to be ready to take it away. We need to stand up and fight.
Don~
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
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Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
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Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
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What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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