Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting So, you're looking for advice on your first AR...

[BarryG]

I also have seen the article. While I wont sit here and say that they couldn't be better and I would not want to be in need of the round that failed to feed, chamber, eject or fire at the wrong time those numbers equate to 99.73% (186/69000) or 99.91% (61/69000) of the time it went bang. Wonder what any other rifle failure rates would be for some sort of comparison.

 

[Sticks]

The results of that particular test all really do point to ammo or magazine - of which I don't care what rifle operating system you are running, if one of those two is bad, you are going to have stoppages.

If you could 100% guarantee 69k rounds that will go bang at the proper velocity, proper magazines with the anti tilt follower, I'd venture that the 61 stoppages would be double what you actually see.

The kind of fight that the MIL engages in, that one time it don't go bang is probably at 400m or more. The opponents we see don't come any closer due to our accuracy, and theirs won't reach that far with any accuracy. Past 500m we are using CAS and watch the fireworks.

 

[HHhuntitall]

...... and while they are not trained to recognize worn or defective parts, they are trained to clear the rifle and proceed... quickly.

 

[GHarman]

Good article on bolt carrier maintenance;
http://www.top-quark.com/blog/arms_mostly/bolt_article/123103_bolt_article.writeback

 

[BIGNASTY]

...... and while they are not trained to recognize worn or defective parts, they are trained to clear the rifle and proceed... quickly.

Precisely!!

One can sit in a nice chair in a house on a computer keyboard and talk about crap like statistics and failure rates but when its your A hanging on the line, it has to work FIRST TIME, EVERY TIME or your not going to have to worry about statistics any longer, I didn't care if it was the gun, clip, ammo or the monkey in the tree next to my hole scratching his Nuts fault, there is only one degree of dead because of such failures.

One other statistic that wasn't looked at take an M60 put several thousand rounds thru it almost non stop (except to change out barrels and slap another belt of ammo in) and things tend to get just a tad warm. How many failures were caused by heat so intense that parts didn't mesh any longer, bottom line is there are many reasons for a weapon to fail to go bang, NOBODY can point to one particular thing and say for sure that IT is the reason that it didn't work. Like HH said clear the weapon and Pray like hell that it starts working with the next pull of the trigger.

 

[The patriot]

Weapon Outfitters: VLTOR MUR-1A Upper - $164.00

You have to be logged in to take advantage of this deal. Make an account and you'll see the price at $164.00. Standard shipping is $7.95 -- if you want free shipping, spend over $200

http://www.weaponoutfitters.com/vltor-modular-upper-receiver-mur-with-bolt-assist.html

 

[GHarman]

Thanks Patriot! Already have what I need. The additional resource is a good one!

 

[HHhuntitall]

Weapon Outfitters: VLTOR MUR-1A Upper - $164.00

You have to be logged in to take advantage of this deal. Make an account and you'll see the price at $164.00. Standard shipping is $7.95 -- if you want free shipping, spend over $200

http://www.weaponoutfitters.com/vltor-modular-upper-receiver-mur-with-bolt-assist.html

Hmm... nice...

 

[Sticks]

Precisely!!

One can sit in a nice chair in a house on a computer keyboard and talk about crap like statistics and failure rates but when its your A hanging on the line, it has to work FIRST TIME, EVERY TIME or your not going to have to worry about statistics any longer, ...

I agree Big. I don't think there is a weapon on this planet that is immune to failure. Some are more prone than others. Murphy's law guarantees it will happen when you are out in the open in CQB, with no place to duck back/down. If your primary fails, backup (sidearm) fails, then a batlefield pickup you are standing on fails, that's just the Grim Reaper taking a serious interest in you.

I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the modern M4, particularly the Civilian M4 is a Jam-O-Matic.

 

[HHhuntitall]

I agree Big. I don't think there is a weapon on this planet that is immune to failure. Some are more prone than others. Murphy's law guarantees it will happen when you are out in the open in CQB, with no place to duck back/down. If your primary fails, backup (sidearm) fails, then a batlefield pickup you are standing on fails, that's just the Grim Reaper taking a serious interest in you.

I'm just trying to dispel the myth that the modern M4, particularly the Civilian M4 is a Jam-O-Matic.

....and experience shows... Murphy was an optimist....

 

[Newt]

I want to thank all who have contributed to this thread. I know absolutely nothing about the AR. I've never even held one. LOL

Just to give you a clue, I had a M1 in Basic. My service weapon was a M2 Carbine. At that time, the M2 Carbine has the fastest cyclic rate of fire of any small arm in the armed services.

Newt

 

[GHarman]

Newt,
There was a time when I did not want to know about the AR's, for reasons already discussed. But I changed my mind and am getting an education.
Thanks to the input of Sticks, HHhuntitall, Patriot, BIG and others.

The AR platform is the ultimate "Leggo" system. In the old days, Eli Whitney was given a huge amount of credit for developing manufacturing methods that allowed for interchangeable parts. http://www.history.com/topics/inventions/interchangeable-parts
Up until that time, every item made for a customer, was a unique, one-of-a-kind, time consuming creation. With great emphasis on the ability, skills and knowledge of the craftsman and EXPENSIVE.
The advantage of this firearm is that you do not have to be a Gunsmith, with a fully equipped shop to assemble a functional, accurate firearm. Parts, accessories are widely available. All you need are some basic tools and some mechanical ability. Further understanding of "how it works" is good! Ability to learn as you go is a good attribute.

I also used the M-1 Garand in Infantry Training Regiment, at Camp Lejune, back in 1966. That and the M-14 were really fine rifles. Then the M-16 came along as issued to the US Military. It took several decades for it to mature into the platform it is today. Perfect? No! But useable and functional? Absolutely!!
GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Newt,
There was a time when I did not want to know about the AR's, for reasons already discussed. But I changed my mind and am getting an education.
Thanks to the input of Sticks, HHhuntitall, Patriot, BIG and others.

Hey don't get me into this, I don't like the black guns!!! I have two of them they aren't that accurate, about the only thing they are good for IMO is putting lead down range quickly at least in the configuration that mine are in, Now a Pard has a 6.5 Grendel and its very nice but it really tears up pelts to the point that they are nearly unusable!!!

 

[GHarman]

Brother BIG!
Your recounts of Your Pards 6.5 have really intrigued me. That 6.5 Grendel is being duplicated, by another Good Friend, along with my .223/5.56 project. We are still waiting on gas system parts. My friend previously bought a complete 6.5 Grendel upper and has had trouble getting it to group. So he decides to build his own! He ordered a Lilja Barrel.

I do not know what the ultimate accuracy potential of the AR platform can be. Some really accurate "across the course" rifles have been fielded based on the black rifle platform. Special configurations are used as Designated Marksman Rifles. My goal is to find out just what can be done, using what I understand about harmonics and precision assembly. This may or may not be a satisfactory experience.
We understand that the Military 5.56 ammo certainly is not designed to drive tacks. Handloaded ammo is a different story.

Looking forward to assembly and trigger time!
GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Brother BIG!
Your recounts of Your Pards 6.5 have really intrigued me. That 6.5 Grendel is being duplicated, by another Good Friend, along with my .223/5.56 project. We are still waiting on gas system parts. My friend previously bought a complete 6.5 Grendel upper and has had trouble getting it to group. So he decides to build his own! He ordered a Lilja Barrel.

I do not know what the ultimate accuracy potential of the AR platform can be. Some really accurate "across the course" rifles have been fielded based on the black rifle platform. Special configurations are used as Designated Marksman Rifles. My goal is to find out just what can be done, using what I understand about harmonics and precision assembly. This may or may not be a satisfactory experience.
We understand that the Military 5.56 ammo certainly is not designed to drive tacks. Handloaded ammo is a different story.

Looking forward to assembly and trigger time!
GregH

I don't see how you can go wrong with Lilja its a great barrel made in the Great State of Montana, that alone it should group better than any thing else.

All BS aside its a great weapon in the 6.5 as long as a guy had time to set up a shot even at out to 6 or 7 hundred yards or more it would waste any predator that I know of, NOT!!! INCLUDING GRIZZ. ( even then I guess if you could get enough lead in it??? ) Like I said, to me the only down side of it is the amount of pelt destruction which makes this a head shot only weapon that its FULLY capable of at the above ranges if the one tickling the trigger is up to the task.

BIG

 

[HHhuntitall]

I'll disagree on the 6.5s long range ability... it's on par with the 260 Rem, and in the AR15 platform, it's not capable, in my opinion, of large game such as elk and mule deer beyond much over 400 yards, and that's only with the heavy bullets.... A 243WSSM would have more down range energy with a 100gr bullet, and have a flatter trajectory....

Regardless, they can be fun rifles, with some accuracy, and even repeatable accuracy. I bought my first one to eliminate multiple coyotes I was bringing to the call. The bolt guns just didn't have the rapid, accurate fire I needed to hit three coyotes inside 200 yards in rough terrain. That sparked my interest in the light recoiling, quick handling, sporting rifle.... the M1As were difficult to retain target sight due to recoil, not to mention the weight. A few tens of thousands of rounds later, and I kinda like the little aluminum blocks of gas spewing slingshots....

 

[BIGNASTY]

Personally I wouldn't shoot any game animal that I intended to consume, with any AR based rifle!!

Quote from ME
All BS aside its a great weapon in the 6.5 as long as a guy had time to set up a shot even at out to 6 or 7 hundred yards or more it would waste any predator that I know of,
End Quote

Predator Being the KEY WORD,

Coyote are not very hardy and wont take much to down them, their larger cousins that weigh in at 130lb and more are a different story, they can take some punishment from a 223 AR and will still succumb to the wounds, but can travel long distance before they do. The 6.5 puts a DEFINITIVE end to the running off if the trigger man does his part

 

[GHarman]

Interesting ammunition development. Just passing on the information. Some of you shooters may know of this, already?
GregH

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...mk-262-mod-1-5-56-ammo-now-for-civilians-too/

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2012/03/21/special-forces-to-civilians-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/

 

[BIGNASTY]

I have heard more than once that Ball ammo is hard on a barrel, any truth to that?

 

[GHarman]

Don't believe that is the case with lead cores and guilding metal jackets. FMJ ammo is just made with the jackets formed "upside down". If you look at the base of the FMJ bullet, you can see part of the core. The ammo with steel cores used as "armor piercing" have a cover of lead between the hardened core and jacket. There is no contact with the lands or grooves of the barrel by the hardened core. Steel jacketed bullets were used in a time of copper shortages. The steel is annealed very soft and often coated with copper or nickel, primarily to keep the jacket from rusting. . Barrel wear is dependent on how hot you get the rifle, more so than the wear from jacketed bullets of any persuasion. IMHO, the stories about increased wear are mixed and subjective. One thing for sure, avoid shooting tracers!
GregH