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GHarmin - You have to think of terms of the design application for this platform. Semiautomatic, double stacked magazines, 0 - 200 yards, 7 moa, or Minute of Man. They are capable of longer ranges and tighter grouping, but that requires skill on the operator (it's not the bow, it's the Indian), and certain tweaks to some of the components.

Your ammo comparison does point out the differences in quality of the factory ammo that is on the market. That's why all my ammo is home brew, I know I am +/- 1% on overall consistency with every round that leaves my press, which is reflected downrange. It also proves that rifles will get particular (READ ~ picky eater) in a particular brand and bullet grain (My MK12 does not like my M193 all that much).

Both of mine do leave scratches on the bullet upon feeding, I have not compared left feed vs. right. I don't get any burs however. Once I get my MK12 dialed in with the MK262 ammo, then I may start looking at the feed ramps and consider polishing to minimize or eliminate any marring of the bullet upon feeding. Right now I am more concerned with the SureFire muzzle brake and the pitting on the forward port dragging on the bullet upon exit.

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After 700 rounds.

Here is one of my 10 shots @ 100y targets. My first assembly, 16" middy, Aimpoint PRO, firing prone off the mag (another point that used to be a no-no, but with the modern rifles it's a go), support arm on the handguard, not bracing/monopoding the stock.

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I knew as soon as I pulled the trigger on shots 4 and 7 (low left and right) that I shanked 'em (Thanks Pat MacNamera - I can call my shots now :mad: ) - they are not "flyers". The Aimpoint is a 2 MOA RDS - so my dot, covers the 2" square in that target @ 100. I'd hate to try to duplicate that with a 4 MOA RDS.

Flying_gage - At the time that I wrote that, I had completed my first assembly and was mapping out my MK12.

Cost at that time was not an issue, so my components were going to be top 'o the line in quality, but minimal on the new and fancy wiz-bang crud.

I had looked at off the rack rifles, and the top quality brands (also referred to Tier 1 - a term I don't use) still had features or issues that I did not want, and customizing the rifle/carbine to my needs was an additional waste of money, and a growing collection of parts.

The point of that writeup was directed at the first timers to the evil black rifle. A simple cost/benefit analysis would be 2 fold (financial and emotional). 1 ~ getting a rifle that is of quality out of the gate, saving the buyer from either replacing the weak points on the lower quality rifles, or paying a gunsmith to do the repairs in the lack of quality control in the "cheaper" rifles. 2 ~ getting a rifle that is of quality out of the gate vs. the cheaper ones will leave the shooter with less frustration and distaste for the platform after experiencing the malfunctions and failures.

One could go out and buy a $600 rifle, a few magazines, a cheap Chinese RDS, and I'll wager within 250 rounds, they will start to see the effects of going cheap, and the frustration building. Rapidly diminishing accuracy, constantly re-zeroing, frequent jams.

A case in point, a buddy of mine who bought a Stag; The handguard was 3/32 shy of mating up to the receiver, who knows if the barrel nut was properly torqued, the receiver extension castle nut was not staked, and would have backed off, the gas key on the BGC was poorly staked and would have loosened up, unknown gas port size and buffer (time will tell on that one), the FCG is 3 stage and gritty as all get out with a long reset. I have not personally shot it yet to tell if it's over gassed - which is a common problem with the budget rifles.

Oh, and it's "Magazine" not "Clip". FWIW - 30 round magazines are standard capacity, not high capacity (I'm still bitter at the CO legislature).

10%u00252520round%25206x%2520002.jpg


102_0810.jpg
 
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Sticks, If my SR556 would do that, I would be happy!

However, It won't, in magnitudes of error!. Even with crafted hand loads! I can call my shots also.

Now, I doubt that I can run with you on a carbine course. I stopped competition shooting 30 years ago. I am not a young man, nor does my body cooperate like it used to. But lets just say, I am still able to shoot quite well fer a blind, busted up schmuck:-laf. Enough to be able to shoot a bolt rifle almost as good as HHhuntitall:--):-laf And like you, I must watch my expenditures! That is one reason why I am so disappointed with this SR556.

The Ruger version of this platform is capable of greater accuracy than has been my experience, here. So I will pursue it.

After a call to Ruger, I believe they have a handle on the idea that their equipment is creating an issue! This second Return request will be handled by Management. Since the first return saw no indication of even basic troubleshooting techniques.

This firearm should properly function and be accuracy tested with commonly available commercial military ammunition. Since Ruger absolutely forbids the use of Handloads in their offering. Using "GOLD standard" Factory match ammo IMHO is not a fair comparison.

I does give a false impression that there are no QA/QC issues. At 50 Yards, a 10 year old could keep 'em under a quarter!



Heres an idea on your RDS. Use a 6" diameter Black bullseye or larger for a larger dot and center the dot! Concentric circles are far easier to see than covering a orange square with a black plus, using a red dot! The concentric circles are intuitive and easier to see errors in aiming. Just a thought during your load development and testing.



Is the muzzle brake hardened steel? You may be able to get in there and polish out the pitting. Just make sure you keep the surface perpendicular to the bore and dont get the exit surfaces to thin. You may have to replace it? IMHO, As long as the bullet is not touching the brake bore, you should not see any interference with accuracy, as long as the gasses are vented evenly.

Thanks for your reply

Have fun!

Greg
 
I'm no spring buck either. At 43, and working blue collar for the last 30 using my body as a lift, battering ram, and other blunt instruments, blown both shoulders and knees, 1 back surgery that was a 70% fix... and virtually blind with astigmatism (I don't have a red dot, I have a comet) and several stout hit's to the head removing most of my childhood memories. I can not shoot irons to save my life, it's more of a point shooting technique at that point, and happy to hit paper @ 100.



3 - 2 day advanced training classes with the platform. I'm good, but still a far cry from an operator. I'll tell ya, shooting a VTAC Barricade with a 2. 5-10 scope, both strong and support side was a wild experience, but I still managed to ring steel on that 2/3 IPSC @ 100y every shot.



Anyhow, back to your R556; It's been a while... . I seem to recall an issue with the piston guns and the bolt rails. There is a fix for it. You'd find it on M4carbine, several threads on the point. I had no interest in the piston guns, so I did not pay overt attention to those threads.



The feeding and marring of the bullet could be causing your accuracy issues. I'd also be looking into the mating of the barrel to the upper for alignment, and the clocking of the barrel extension. QC could very well be an issue since all the manufacturers have been running on overdrive since October of last year. Don't put too much stock in the "No Reloads". Universal Manufacturer CYA, and usually underscored with their pushing their own flavor of ammo, along with an easy out to any warranty claims. IIRC there are only a couple of manufacturers that will void a warranty due to reloads only in the event of catastrophic failure... the rifle blows up.



Test your bolt to make sure it is fully locked locked into battery before the hammer falls... dry fire of course. Pull the charging handle fully back and slowly start closing the bolt while depressing the trigger... again dry fire, no magazine, no live ammo within 30 feet (for the others looking for education) and see if the bolt goes into full battery before the hammer falls. You will probably have to use the forward assist (if equipped) if you go slow enough. Rinse and repeat gradually increasing the speed. If this was an issue, I would suspect you would see signs on the bolt lugs by now. Some Prussian Blue would help verify.



You might also be able to break down the rifle, and BCG, and hand fit the bolt into battery with an empty sized & trimmed case into the chamber (I'd make up a dummy round, no primer). Should be good and tight.



Bits and pieces of checking things that could be suspect and the proper terms are drifting in and out of memory, but they are not forming complete tests yet. Wish I could be of more help.



Take a long hard look at your sighting choice. If you are using a RDS, (not an el-cheapo one) make sure it is fully forward in the picatinny slots, properly torqued, and on the upper only ~ READ - not crossing onto the handguard, and with the proper eye relief. If Irons, again, tight with absolutely no slop or movement in the front or rear. I've lost count of the number of people complaining about accuracy that turned out to be the sights (including the 3 that fell off during the training classes I attended). Crappy quality RDS, loose mounts and risers (blue locktite is your friend), BUIS that were able to wiggle ever so slightly by hand. That is the main reason I did not buy a Troy Rifle when they came out. 1/16 of slop in the front integrated sight post, non serviceable and part of the handguard.
 
That clip/magazine thingy cracks me up. I am 50/50 when it comes to what I call it. Yet when I call the thing a clip when talking with my buddy, it is as though I removed his large intestines and then wrapped it around his head and and put a bow on the whole mess. I just don't get it. Having never served, I am guessing it comes down to that? However, I in calling it a clip, demonstrate that there is a semantic commonality. No offense intended sticks! You just made me chuckle!

In regards to Colorado, it sure is not the Colorado I grew up in! Being reared, (see I can get things right :) ) in Evergreen, I remember the rodeos and the guns in the back of trucks as they drove through town. Looking back, the liberal element was already settling in there, yet the mountain thread was still intact!

I won't hijack the thread anymore. I just believe that there are multiple ways to end up in the same place, (adding reasonably priced parts to a decent rifle).
 
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I did not watch all 5 of the AR vids. After the first one regarding the bolts, I concur with what was stated. Especially the Bushmaster gas key - also had lower grade import (YFS) fasteners. Not the only company that does the crappy bolts, but it is fixable. You just should not have to.

Shop around is the key. Problem being is that components are hard to come by... still, especially a stripped lower.

Both of mine.
PSA stirpped lower - $50
PSA FCG - $79
Troy ambi safety - $50
Magpul ambi bolt release - $26
Troy ambi mag release - $25
Vltor A5 Receiver Extension - $170
Vltor EMOD stock - (included with Vltor A5 RE)
Magpul MIAD - (included with PSA FCG)
Magpul trigger guard (included PSA FCG)
TOTAL assembled lower - $400

MK12 specific;
Geissle SSAE FCG -$179
A2 Receiver extension - $59
Magpul PRS - $189
TOTAL assembled lower - $478

Now both of these have high end components, and beyond basic extras that drove the cost up a couple hundred.
Ideally a basic complete lower should land in the upper $200s

It is darn near impossible to assemble an upper from parts cheaper than buying one outright (though I managed to do so on my MK12 by $75). There is also tooling that ads to the cost, and a higher degree of skill and risk. My savings were because I had acquired the tooling in between assemblies, and the handguard I wanted required a proprietary barrel nut - which was not an option with Centurion ~ Monty would have assembled it if I sent him the parts but that would have bumped the price up.

BTW - What's the status on your R556?
 
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Sticks,
Just received the box.
packing it today.
Will call for UPS pickup schedule, Monday. I imagine it will take 3 weeks or more for them to process this. It took almost a Month the last time.

GregH
 
Update,

Finally got synchronized with the UPS pick up. The SR556 is on its way back to Ruger, #2!



Meantime, I've been looking and reading. Seekins forged lower from Brownells and the VITOR forged upper, also from Brownells.

I get a little discount that will get eatin' up by the FFL transfer in Colorado.

Now, just some cost comparisons.

VITOR Modular Upper Receiver - $179. 99

SEEKINS Precision Forged Lower - $129. 99

Aero Precision receivers are also available

$89. 99 Upper and $99. 99 Lower (7075 T6 forgings)

Barrels range from $275 for a 5. 56 Nato, Daniel Defense Hammer Forged; a button rifled Criterion (made by Kreiger) chambered for . 223 Wylde for $250; up to $433 for a cut rifled Kreiger SS Match chambered for the . 223 Remington.

AND everything in between.

Bolt carrier Group is $189. 00 from Bravo Company.

Charging handle and dust cover.

Barrel extension with M-4 feed ramps.

Quality trigger is $150 and up to $250 for a Gissele.

Now we need a SS gas tube, free floating fore end with barrel nut.

Gas block with piccatinny rail. Spring kit. Roll pin kit. Plungers

Buffer tube and mounting plate with castle nut, Buffer and buffer spring, retainer plunger and spring.

Magazine release and bolt latch.

Butt stock.

Just the receivers, a middle range barrel, BCG and trigger will cost $1000.

I don't want a lead hose! I want precision/accuracy with reliability. My "run and gun" ability or lack of, is secondary to the quality of the build.



On the flip side of the coin, I have also looked at an LRWC and Knight SR-15.

The LRWC is a really pricey piston actuated machine.

Course, the Knight is direct impingement. Very nice! The Colt Competition is still on the list.

There is some nice stuff out there, but all mostly out of my market range

So, no final decision as yet!

A Friend suggested, last year when I bought the Ruger; "Why don't you build your own"?

I told him that it would be a two year project for me to get up to speed and get one together!

Well, here it is, one year later and dissatisfied with the Ruger, for good reason, I might add!

How, in the name of QA/QC can anyone justify charging what that Ruger SR-556 costs with the performance of a Mini-14.

Its all about eye candy! Appearance and awe factor, that is until ya squeeze the trigger!

Sorry! Had to vent on that one!

GregH
 
Update,
Finally got synchronized with the UPS pick up. The SR556 is on its way back to Ruger, #2!
YAY!
Meantime, I've been looking and reading. Seekins forged lower from Brownells and the VITOR forged upper, also from Brownells.
I get a little discount that will get eatin' up by the FFL transfer in Colorado.
Shop around - G&G Guns in Lakewood is pretty fair
Now, just some cost comparisons.
VITOR Modular Upper Receiver - $179. 99
I hope you meant VLTOR not VITOR (a search resulted in nothing called VITOR)
SEEKINS Precision Forged Lower - $129. 99
Aero Precision receivers are also available
Whatever upper you get, make sure it's MIL SPEC, not COMMERCIAL
$89. 99 Upper and $99. 99 Lower (7075 T6 forgings)
Barrels range from $275 for a 5. 56 Nato, Daniel Defense Hammer Forged; a button rifled Criterion (made by Kreiger) chambered for . 223 Wylde for $250; up to $433 for a cut rifled Kreiger SS Match chambered for the . 223 Remington.
Verify that they are chambered and can handle the pressure of the 5. 56 NATO round - they are a little hotter than the . 223 and some other minor differences that do make a difference ~ You can shoot . 223 in a 5. 56, but 5. 56 in a . 223 will cause problems
AND everything in between.
Bolt carrier Group is $189. 00 from Bravo Company.
M16/auto version I presume
Charging handle and dust cover.
I'd go with the BCM Gunfighter version - medium
Barrel extension with M-4 feed ramps.
Should be included on most quality barrels
Quality trigger is $150 and up to $250 for a Gissele.
The ACT trigger is an excellent entry level FCG for around $100, but I would try to get a PSA LPK which would include everything you need for the lower, and usually have packages that include a variety of grips, and FCGs of your choice. The PSA brand FCG that I have on my 16" middy is a very nice FCG with a crisp break, short reset, and little if any creep
Now we need a SS gas tube, free floating fore end with barrel nut.
A lot of free float handguards come with a propritary barrel nut. Midwest Industries and Centurion are my top 2 recommendations. Going back to the barrel, are you getting carbine or midlength gas system (I'd go midlength unless you plan on going suppressed at some point - then you get into needing the right bufffer if you go other than the VLTOR A5
Gas block with piccatinny rail. Spring kit. Roll pin kit. Plungers
Go with a plain low profile gas block, and have the barrel drilled for pinning instead of set screws, the rest of this list is included with LPKs
Buffer tube and mounting plate with castle nut, Buffer and buffer spring, retainer plunger and spring.
If you can find one, VLTOR A5 system. Really makes for a soft shooter. Make sure whatever you get is a MIL SPEC, not COMMERCIAL
Magazine release and bolt latch.
Again, included in LPKs unless you opt to go with ambi safety, mag release and bolt catch
Butt stock.
MIL SPEC! Magpul or VLTOR
Just the receivers, a middle range barrel, BCG and trigger will cost $1000.
I don't want a lead hose! I want precision/accuracy with reliability. My "run and gun" ability or lack of, is secondary to the quality of the build.

On the flip side of the coin, I have also looked at an LRWC and Knight SR-15.
The LRWC is a really pricey piston actuated machine.
Course, the Knight is direct impingement. Very nice! The Colt Competition is still on the list.
Personally I'd stay away from piston. DI actions, if it aint broke, don't fix it.
There is some nice stuff out there, but all mostly out of my market range
So, no final decision as yet!
A Friend suggested, last year when I bought the Ruger; "Why don't you build your own"?
I told him that it would be a two year project for me to get up to speed and get one together!
Well, here it is, one year later and dissatisfied with the Ruger, for good reason, I might add!
How, in the name of QA/QC can anyone justify charging what that Ruger SR-556 costs with the performance of a Mini-14.
Its all about eye candy! Appearance and awe factor, that is until ya squeeze the trigger!
Oh so true. Latest and greatest wiz-bang crud is often just that
Sorry! Had to vent on that one!
GregH

You also might look into some BUIS (Back Up Iron Sights). Troy, Magpul... affordable and gets the job done. Muzzle device - A simple A2 flash hider is sufficient. Lots of brakes on the market, BCM has a new one out that works, and is not as obnoxious to your fellow shooters.
 
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Go to 5280, Machine Gun Tours, and IIRC there is another shop in the vicinity that has (had) a lot of AR's in stock and molest some of their AR's so you can get a feel for the different available stocks, grips and handguards.

As always, buy once, cry once.

Once you get a firm list of all your components, PM me with it and I will try to do a shop around for best pricing & shipping at my usual suspects (often Free).

The only point you are potentially screwed on is the mags unless you stocked up before our wonderful all knowing legislature screwed us. Magpul has not come out with the "Colorado" required 15 round max (that I know of), so you will be stuck with 10 rounders - which are hard to find and pricy. We won't even talk about illegal back door options that I do not advise.
 
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Sticks, Thanks for the breakdown.
Yes the VLTOR upper is indeed the name. I had a whole reply typed out and I lost it. Hit the wrong key.
I will refine my list and send it to you. It will take a little time.
Thanks again! I'll try again, later!
GregH
 
Some thing I'd like to add... .

The flash suppressor is barrel twist relevant. Also, if you ever plan on quick detach sound suppressors, look at flash suppressors that are compatible..... JMO!!

Triggers... don't overlook Jewell and Timney's new model.
 
Brother HHhuntitall!
I need some specifics. The gas escaping behind the bullet is expanding at a high rate and is also turbulent. There is not a laminar flow. (IMHO, without a diffuser, which is impossible)
So what style flash suppressor with what twist rate do you recommend? Can you expound on this?
An interesting problem that I had no idea existed. Knowing a little about muzzle brake installation, this really tweaks my interest!
I wonder if they are related issues?
GregH
 
The gas is contained by the bore and bullet... . when it leaves, it will only be turbulent if it is interrupted in an irregular pattern. The pressure is consistent as Standard deviation in FPS..... A common demonstration I have been shown by benchrest smithy's is to knick the crown... . A rifle shooting . 15 groups is being shot. Take a pocket knife and just press lightly (well, my consideration of lightly, I guess,,,) in the end of the bore in one spot, barely visible, then shoot it. The group opens up to over an inch!!! :eek: Recrown it, smooth it down, and it goes back to it's old habits... . Is it the last contact of the bullet, or is the disturbed gasses? An irregular mark on the crown outside the bore will have similar effects, though not as prominent. And 11* crown? Well, supposedly, that is the tested and proven (read: trial and error, here) degree that proves to be most accurate on smallbore and high power rifles..... I have no doubts you've noticed the even powder burn marks on the muzzle after a shooting session... . if one mark is uneven from others, and the rifle isn't shooting up to par, you have your indicator... .



Supposedly, as I have been told by more experienced mahinists, the gas exiting the muzzle has to line up with the slots in the suppressor, or you DO get turbulence at the base of the bullet as it exits the muzzle, causing it to wobble. A 1:7 twist has a particular spacing in the lands and an expected exit pattern, which should be matched to the exiting gasses, or else they will be trapped and forced back inward towards the bullet. As the gasses are traveling faster than the bullet, if they bounce back into the bullet at an unmatching rate, your guess as to the degree of yaw is as good as mine..... And it makes sense, as in my experience, as well as many others I talk to, the most accurate type of recoil reduction muzzle brake, which reduces the most amount of recoil, is the "clamshell" like used by so many in the industry, including military cannons... . The gasses are diverted behind the bullet, to prevent disturbing the bullets flight... ...



BUT... now you have the autoloading rifle. A rifle designed for combat, not optimum accuracy. It was deemed more important to hide the muzzle flash for follow up shots and concealment than overall accuracy, so they used a flash suppressor instead of a regular crowned barrel like the bolt guns of years past..... but even that technology is evolving... .
 
So after sitting here, I finally remembered the AR flash suppressor company that is matching twist rates... Micor Industries. There may be others. They build them for twist rate and number of lands.

Also, when using muzzle brakes, you aren't concerned with muzzle flash, just suppression of recoil from escaping gasses... The more outlets, usually the better. Gasses weren't kept in the muzzle area to burn residual powder..... KDF made a good living with their products... . though nobody like to go shooting with you anymore... :-laf

GHarm, any thoughts or experiences on the muzzle break installs?
 
Well, this little end of the discussion is all new to me.

None of the flash suppressors or brakes that I have seen by the top manufacturers indicate anything related to twist rate. The standard A2 flash hider threads to the barrel, and the ID is the same as the barrel OD so I don't see where matching the twist would have any + or -. Brakes on the other hand I can see, but again, I've not seen any option to match twist rate.

Makes me want to revisit my MK12, pull that Surefire brake off, have the crown checked and matched, then look into the brake a bit closer.

The whole choice in that particular brake was that I had planned to have my NFA by now and a suppressor for the MK12.
 
Quick response, as I have to leave for town in a few minutes.
Regardless of use, flash suppressor or muzzle brake. The crown must be square with the bore and smooth. Counter bored, flat or 11*.
The barrel project I am working on, in my "not so spare time" is a potential candidate for a brake. I may recrown it at 11* when I thread it for the VAIS brake!
Thanks HH and Sticks!
GregH
 
IIRC, the standard A2 suppressor has matching slots per barrel lands... . That's not a coincidence, I think. I am also stating what I have observed. I haven't studied it in depth, nor experimented with different suppressors much. I have noticed some improved accuracy at longer ranges (400 yds) with twist matched comps... Minimal perhaps, but I believe there is something to it. And when shooting mil-specified (M855, XM193) ammo, there is not way to notice a difference at 400 yds. I have never found factory ammo that is accurate enough to produce a noticeable pattern... . (on that note, I want to point out that, for me, in various rifles, the IMI M855 ammo imported several years ago, is the best I've seen at 400yds,) Now, going to my handloads using 77gr SMKs or Bergers, I can see an improved print pattern at longer ranges with twist matched comps. Is that barrel harmonics, gas turbulence at muzzle, or poor rifle operation? :confused: My limited experimenting was pretty much an excuse to shoot... . I don't need much. Now, an 11* crown is somewhat vulnerable unless recessed, or perfectly protected by a suppressor... . :cool:

And that is ONLY my experience. I don't have a laboratory set up to record data entry... . I just shoot. A lot. Experimenting in that environment is how we learn, IMO.

Sticks, I'd definitely check your crown. Couldn't hurt. But looking at the groups you posted earlier, I'm going to say it's doing it right... . And gas erosion is a serious effect I've noticed after several hundred rounds of hot handloads... . If your crown gets a little out of shape, or wears unevenly from the gas erosion, it may need to be touched up or lapped. I know several benchrest shooters who lap their crowns every 500 rounds... . But they aren't National champs, either... :cool: I see where the physics of the gas expansion would cause some bullet destabilization. But many bullets can be deformed, too. A bullet without a square end will cause the gasses to destabilize the bullet, too... . applying pressure to cause a yaw in the bullet on exit, as the gasses will exit on one side of the bullet a micro second before the other side... . So many variables, so few hours in a day!!! And it's raining here, today... .

I'm open to thoughts and suggestions... . Hopefully, GHarm will return with some insightful thoughts, as well... .
 
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