Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting So, you're looking for advice on your first AR...

[GHarman]

Patriot, check the links Sticks provided in post #77.
Fixin' to order one!

Sticks,
Nothing against any receiver manufacturer. I just do not have a "feel" developed by long term experience with AR platform rifles.
All this stuff is new territory for me. Now, ask me about Remington 700's and Pre-64 M-70 Winchesters and we can have a good conversation:-laf!
The slippery slipshod workmanship of the Ruger has got me on full alert.
I am dissecting everything, probably more than necessary.
I do like BCM and am looking at their complete lower with the base Geissele trigger.
Shown in your second link.

GregH

 

[The patriot]

Nice!!!!!!!!

 

[Sticks]

Yeah, several places are authorized BCM dealers, and you can get stripped or built lowers. Grant does top notch assemblies, and no fear ever of being anything wrong with a BCM lower.

Mr. Harman,

If you do get the BCM lower assembly, you are kind of half committing yourself to the standard receiver extension, which may mean a change in buffer depending on gas system (carbine, mid length, or rifle + gas port size ~ stay away from the adjustable gas blocks). If you were going to multi upper that lower...well regardless, I would still get the Vltor A5 receiver extension system on there.

I will try to do a hunt for the Vltor upper today.

 

[Sticks]

Greg,

They can be found. Be cautious, and I would use a credit card that will void a payment if the seller is not legit. I'm just paranoid that way when I buy anything over $50 from a random website. Odds that it's a scam are slim to none, some of these places are just small shops or businesses that no-one has ever heard of unless they are local (gun shop in hole in the wall random city that has a kid in college that designed a webpage to increase daddy's sales).

Contact prior to purchase to verify stock and price + shipping (I did not look at any shipping rates).

http://www.riflegear.com/p-513-vltor-mur-1a-upper-receiver.aspx

http://www.tieronearms.com/product-p/mur-1a.htm

Sign up for backorder at Midway

http://arnzenarms.com/product/18317 Have to create account, not sure what the price is.

http://tradingplacepawn.com/vltor-mur-1a.html

http://vtsupply.com/vltor-mur-modular-upper-receiver-mur-1a-billet-ar15-ar-15.html

http://www.rifleoutfit.com/vltor-mur-1a-modular-upper-receiver-w-bolt-assist-and-shell-deflector.html

http://www.nokick.com/Vltor_MUR_Upper_Receiver_w_Shell_Deflector_p/vltr-mur-sd.htm

Heck, I'd order from 2 different places, and if you end up with 2, sell the second one local for what you paid (https://www.ar-15.co/

 

[GHarman]

OK! Working on the complete lower. Should be ordered by tomorrow, PM.
Upper will be the VLTOR. Thanks for the links, Sticks!

New question; You recommended the VLTOR A5 receiver extension tube/buffer assay, requiring their spring and buffer.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Vltor-A5-Spring-and-Buffer-Kit-p/vltor sp-a5.htm

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Vltor-A5-Receiver-Extension-Tube-p/vltor re-a5.htm

What is the advantage or difference between the above and this buffer tube (other than the price?)

I had about 2X as much written in addition to this and lost it because of the danged website time outs!
How do I adjust this? Everytime I log out this happens after a new log in!

Thanks for your replies!
Greg

 

[Sticks]

It seems to help click the check box "Remeber me" on the log in. Also it's habit for me to click Ctrl+A+C (copy the entire post I just typed if it's a long one) before I click preview or post reply...just in case, though I do forget occasionally.

The Vltor A5 system is a mid point between a carbine length assembly and rifle. You get the best of both worlds, plus 7 locking stock positions rather than the 5 on the standard M4 systems. It makes for a softer perceived recoil (not that there is much on these as it is), and though they can't really claim this, better recoil control/muzzle rise. It uses a rifle length spring (though I don't know that you can use a rifle spring as a replacement - not an issue, plenty of OEM and after market options out there and Vltor is not going anywhere), and a special buffer.

From the Vltor website;

Vltor A5 Buffer & Recoil System - The unique design of the new buffer and receiver extension tube allow the A5 System to adapt a MilSpec EMOD Stock to any M16/AR15 rifle.

Tests show that the A5 System reduces the cyclic rate of the M4 Carbine and lowers bolt carrier velocity; and recently, extensive testing conducted on the M16A4 proved that the A5 System was the most reliable and consistent stock system available for that platform!

The A5 Buffer and Recoil Assembly was developed by Vltor Weapons for the specific needs of the U.S. Military. As the M16/AR15 series of rifles have evolved into specialized configurations, such as the SPR, M4 and Mk 18, each of these designs using a new combination of barrel and gas-systems. Attempts to universally use the standard collapsible stock on all platforms - from M16A4 to the Mk18 - have proven unreliable at best.

The A5 Buffer and Recoil System takes a new approach to this problem, providing a single collapsing stock and buffer system that can be used on all current configurations of direct impingement systems. The A5 System reduces cyclic rate on the shorter barreled rifles and maintains a much more consistent bolt velocity and rate of fire across all current issue weapons based on the M16.

Now you don't have to use their Emod stocks (nice stocks regardless). Those are designed to collapse all the way to the castle nut. If you use any other quality milspec collapseable stock - (Magpul, Troy, Etc.) They will collapse all the way to just forward of position 1 but leave about 1" between the stock and the castle nut - still safe to "mortar" the rifle if needed (clearing a bolt override/double feed, other malfunctions). The key there is to have the tube all the way to the back of the stock, not relying on the little plastic locking nub - that one you don't want to break.

A lot of people that go with carbine length gas systems end up having to try different buffers to get their rifle to cycle reliably depending on ammo - especially those that go suppressed or have iffy barrels (over sized gas port or gas port erosion - but the barrel is still good). Some short stroke (under gassed) some bounce on the buffer causing a failure to feed (over gassed). The A5 cures that issue. I would have put one on my MK12 also, except I wanted the Magpul PRS fixed stock rather than an adjustable one - so I had to get a standard rifle tube.

If you do go with the A5, you can still use the stock that comes with the BCM lower, you'll just end up with an extra receiver extension. If I had a standard RE, or knew someone I could get a hold of on short notice that is running a carbine system, you could do a side by side comparison using the same upper.

 

[GHarman]

Sticks,
Here is the comparison Buffer tube that was missing from my last post.
It is HUGELY Expensive! But? Is it merely "eye candy" or a functional improvement?
Thanks!
GregH

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Primary-Weapon-Systems-Enhanced-Buffer-Tube-Mil-S-p/pws-4btmilb1.htm

 

[GHarman]

Got the BCM lower and the VLTOR upper ordered, today. Was in touch with the FFL to arrange transfer of the controlled lower.
Its all set up!
Now, a barrel and fore end, gas tube/block (depending on the barrel) muzzle device and the buffer assembly.
Getting' closerOo.!
I'll need a receiver block and insert to mount the barrel. Cant forget the tools. A wrench comes with the for end I am considering as it is proprietary.
GregH

 

[Sticks]

Sticks,
Here is the comparison Buffer tube that was missing from my last post.
It is HUGELY Expensive! But? Is it merely "eye candy" or a functional improvement?
Thanks!
GregH

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Primary-Weapon-Systems-Enhanced-Buffer-Tube-Mil-S-p/pws-4btmilb1.htm

WizBang. It makes sense, but about the time you really need to be uber anal about clocking of the receiver extension is on a rifle for precision. If one wanted to, they could notch a standard receiver extension a bit for the buffer retainer pin and get the same result. It's a fix for a problem that does not exist when using quality components.

Got the BCM lower and the VLTOR upper ordered, today. Was in touch with the FFL to arrange transfer of the controlled lower.
Its all set up!
Now, a barrel and fore end, gas tube/block (depending on the barrel) muzzle device and the buffer assembly.
Getting' closerOo.!
I'll need a receiver block and insert to mount the barrel. Cant forget the tools. A wrench comes with the for end I am considering as it is proprietary.
GregH

I can loan you mine (receiver clamp). You probably have all the other tools you need.

Verify with the manufacturer of the handguard that it mates to the Vltor upper - as I said earlier, isolated reports of some of them not mating up. Usually the ones that have a tab or somesuch that extends past the barrel nut alongside the upper (remember - the side walls of the Vltor are thicker). If it's flush all the way down with the end of the upper rail, you should be good. Might be a cosmetic issue if it's an uber small profile tube style, then there will be a little drop in the transition from the receiver to the handguard on the sides.

Barrel - Centurion is all I have experience with, and that is what I would recommend. Whoever you choose, get the barrel drilled for a pinned gas block, not set screw. There is a DIY jig available - more money spent on a tool you'll only use once.

Have you decided on a carbine, midlength or rifle gas system?

There is also; (my recommendations)
Charging handle (BCM Gunfighter Medium)
BUIS (Troy, Diamond Head, Magpul, Knights Armament $$$)
RDS (Aimpoint PRO at the top of my list, YMMV depending on intended use, might want a 1-4x scope)
Sling (Blue Force Gear VTAC W/ QD mounts)
Mags (insert profanity here Colorado Legislature)
QD Sling Mounts (if not built into the stock and handguard)
Optional
Ambi safety/fire selector
Magpul BAD lever
Weapon Light (Streamlight TLR1)
Mag carrier
Training course
Paint

 

[GHarman]

Sticks,
Mid length gas system.
BCM charging handle, large.
Have an Aimpoint 5000. Good enough for the SHTF middy carbine upper.
I want good optics for the MUR build.
needing the VLTOR enhanced buffer kit.
Have a set of Troy BUsights
Have adequate mags.

Why pinned GB vs set screw?

Thanks,
GregH

 

[Sticks]

Gas Block - Better seal, one more thing that won't come loose under the heat/cool extremes.

Aimpoint 5000 - That girl is OLD. Still good, but OLD.

 

[GHarman]

The Aimpoint 5000 has a 7Min dot! =)
Its fine for these old eyes. I can still do concentric circles on a standard black bullseye target, with this aiming system.

Hmm, I am looking at Criterion, Kreiger and Daniel Defense barrels.
Still not sure about my plan, here.

GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

Pin vs. Set screw... the screw will walk out if it's not installed in a blind hole into the threads.... many are installed with just tension on the threads of the barrel... NOT a good design. The pin is tolerance fit, and if fitted correctly, (as a screw would be if it were put down into a hole in the threads) it can't ever come out with the barrel nut retaining it inside the threads.... A thread tension screw can't come out, but it will come loose or wear into the threads, leaving a possibility of the barrel working loose.....

Krieger has proven results, as do Lilja. I've used both, and both work great. There is a possibility, if you're not too picky, they may even have one on the shelf, ready to go...

http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/ar15_ar10_link.htm

http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/DCM__AR_15-c1246-wp3394.htm

 

[The patriot]

"Pin vs. Set screw"
Do you mean on the gas block?
I've always entertained the idea of using a slightly longer screws, then doing an "aircraft" type of wiring on it. With the two screws right there, it could be done with a minimum of bulk.
JM.02

 

[GHarman]

Thanks HH!
Those are top of the line tubes!
Kreiger would be my top choice!
However, I want to try either a Daniel Defense or chrome lined Criterion first.
This will be an 18" barrel. Was thinking about a 20" HBAR configuration but it is a touch heavy.
I passed up a Noveske 18" LW mid length gas system barrel, today! It would have gone home with me, but I saw a whole bunch of ragged edges at the gas port, inside the bore!
That barrel was $555.00 +8.01% Tax! I don't think so!

The pinning/fitting of the barrel extension is something I am not ready to tear into. I will purchase the barrels, already fitted and chambered with the extension installed, for now. However, the pinning vs the setscrew method of attaching the gas block is another question that does require immediate consideration.
Just as an observation, the low profile gas block was attached to that Noveski barrel with a set screw AND a pin!
Many of the blanks I have investigated have dimples on the gas block journal, under the gas port, for set screws.

https://danieldefense.com/cold-hamm...-56mm-s2w-mid-length-chf-barrel-stripped.html

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-prod54733.aspx?avs|Cartridge_1=AJO_223 Wylde

unless I see something that really tickles my fancy, I will probably hold off on a barrel purchase until after the first of the year. Need to get a few tools and a the VLTOR A-5 buffer kit and swap out the carbine buffer on the BCM lower.

OH, the Ruger is officially a done deal. They will refund my purchase price! For that, I am very pleased!
I believe they jumped on the "little black rifle" bandwagon during the 2012 pre election mad rush and suffered some QA/QC nightmares to slip through the cracks!
When I told an old friend about the issues with the Ruger, he said "you got a buyer", but I told him NO! This is something that needs to be addressed by the manufacturer and the original owner.
This issue is what got me started down this path! That and the fact that I have two young people in my family that would love to shoot an AR platform rifle.
I hope to have this up and running by late Spring
GregH

 

[GHarman]

Patriot,
The preferred and BEST method of securing the gas block was my question. However, I can see advantages to both methods of securing the gas block to the barrel.
A set screw improperly fitted and tightened can deform the bore! If it is use as part of the location of the gas block and in conjunction with a pinned block, I can understand that application. I wonder if there are torque specs for the set screw method. Do they use Loctite? Which formula? Red or Blue? High temperature?
This is another area that I will investigate more thoroughly.
With the use of light weight aluminum low profile gas blocks, I can see how Sticks is concerned about the heating/cooling cycle loosening the set screws.
A roll pin inserted through the block and sliding through a machined groove in the barrel on the bottom of the gas block journal would surely be an ideal set up as long as the hole in the aluminum gas block does not get wallowed out!. IMHO!

 

[HHhuntitall]

I just thought I'd touch base on the pinned barrel extension... it's pretty important!! As for the set screws on the gas blocks, on SS barrels, I typically find the set screws take a nice seat in the barrel metal... they can sometimes work loose without Loctite, but seem to hold up well, otherwise..... The tapered pin used by some mfgs works good, too.... just be sure what way you drive them in and out!! I've seen more than one ruined that had to be replaced.... I think most match type barrels use set screw type blocks.... Of course, anything with a front sight gas block needs some way to index it to the rear sight repeatedly after disassembly.

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall,
Please feel free to be specific on the pinned barrel extension.
I was wondering how that system maintained headspace with no shoulder on the barrel.

How many rounds do you see, through a Lilja or Kreiger Barrel?
Accuracy?
Haven't heard to much from you, lately! You must be up to yer neck in alligators !
Thanks, Brother!
Greg

 

[Sticks]

Went and did a search and lost my post. Have to get ready for work now, will reply tomorrow.

This I will say.

A complete barrel blank, has to have the barrel extension fitted, torqued, head spaced, then the gas port of correct size and distance from the chamber drilled. Lot of work, not for a first timer in that procedure. Better off buying a barrel already done in 5.56 NATO.

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall,
Please feel free to be specific on the pinned barrel extension.
I was wondering how that system maintained headspace with no shoulder on the barrel.

How many rounds do you see, through a Lilja or Kreiger Barrel?
Accuracy?
Haven't heard to much from you, lately! You must be up to yer neck in alligators !
Thanks, Brother!
Greg

Greg! They're only about knee deep, but I don't think they're alligators..... they're all floating around, but are brown and smell like politicians... :-laf It's been a fun month for me, been doing a lot of work, but also a lot of hunting. Lots of shell casings, dead pigs, and prairie poodles on the ground!!

The barrel extension is threaded on, as I'm sure you've found in your research..... the extension pin's index is dictated by barrel twist and the location of the gas port in the groove between the lands/riflings, as it has to be at the required length for the gas tube to fit and function. I don't have the measurements in my head, at the moment, but pistol is shorter than carbine, carbine shorter than rifle.... you understand, I'm sure. The threaded barrel threads into the extension, and you have to cut a shoulder on the barrel to fit against he face of the extension. Then you can measure an estimate of where you're gas port needs to be, and get it drilled. It's a tricky process to get it drilled in the groove, so I usually leave that up to the barrel mfg. I've screwed that up once, and it was a $300 lesson.... I don't have the tooling, myself. Once the barrel is drilled correctly, then you have your reference for the barrel extension pin, which has to be perfectly parallel to the gas port to align the gas tube with the receiver. I don't want to get into the gas port size here, but there are several sizes. Krieger uses a .093 gas port in their barrels. In fast twist barrels, 1:6.5 or 1:7, that may be a bit large, IMO. I've had to install adjustable gas tubes on several, as well as carrier weight systems.... It's not a concern if shooting DOD ammo, only with 80-90gr bullets, which I don't recommend for use in a magazine, anyway, but that's JMO.....

Anyway, with the gas port drilled, then you can index and tighten the barrel extension, taking off the calculated amount of metal from the front of the barrel and shoulder to get the extension in time with the gas port and bolt lugs, taking into account crush depth, of course.... Once measured out and torqued down, then you can drill the barrel for the pin and hammer it home!! Once the pin is timed and drilled, it gets pretty easy, by comparison. You have to chamber off the bolt face, now, and I can't teach you much about that!! :-laf

The Lilja barrels are kinda iffy.... I've never shot out any Lilja barrels in an AR platform, but going off a bolt gun reference, they tend to vary in life for some reason.... I don't know if it's that they are inconsistent in their manufacture, or if it's their material, but I've had some that lasted 1500rnds before starting to fade, and others that lasted up into the 2500 range.... I haven't built any personal AR type guns using the Lilja's.... they only offer a 1:8 twist, and I prefer 1:7.

The Krieger's last. I've only had one that went away I've used, and that one had over 5,000 rounds of DOD MK262 fired through it. Not that it didn't function, it just wasn't as accurate. Typically, I see those guys shooting service rifle change them out every two years, usually with around 4-5000 rounds through them. If they get a real hummer, they'll take it off when they practice and have others for practice sessions....

The Daniel Defense barrels are made by two mfgs... one is hammer forged mediocracy, the other is button rifled. I'm not a fan of hammer forgings, as I'm sure you're tired of hearing.... All of them are marked... if you look on the barrel, they'll be marked "DD HF ........ " HF or BS for hammer forge or button swage, with caliber and date of mfg following afterwards......

Criterion barrels look promising. I've been going to order one to try, but with other offerings.... I'm not sold on chrome linings, yet, but the theory seems solid, and they've been used quite a bit over the years.... anyone else have experience with them after 2,000 rounds or so?