Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting So, you're looking for advice on your first AR...

[GHarman]

I had a 3 paragraph reply to Sticks and HH typed up and lost it. Dang!Heres a Barrel Mfgr. I haven't heard of before?
Interesting! GregH

http://www.ar15performance.com/barrels?cmx=11562&start=0

 

[The patriot]

Dan def barrel ID:


Barrel Identification

Daniel Defense is a leading manufacturer of barrels for the AR15/M4 platform. Daniel Defense currently offers barrels that are manufactured by either a button swage process or cold hammer forged. These processes are both very precise but very different all at the same time. All Daniel Defense barrels are HP and MPI tested, chrome lined, and heavy phosphate coated. Barrels chambered in 5.56mm have a threaded muzzle with 1/2x28 TPI while 6.8 SPC Barrels have a threaded muzzle with 5/8x24 TPI.

Daniel Defense has been constantly evolving the barrel identification markings, or Roll Marks, on these barrel to make them easier to identify. Below you will find a list and images of the roll marks that identify our button swage barrels and cold hammer forged barrels.
Button Swage Barrels

DDI 1/7 4150 MP
DDI 1/7 4150 MP

DD 4150 5.56 NATO 1/7
DD 4150 5.56 NATO 1/7

1X7 5.56 Nato
1X7 5.56 Nato


Cold Hammer Forged Barrels

DD 5.56 NATO 1/7
DD 5.56 NATO 1/7

DD 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)
DD 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)

DD HP MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)
DD HP MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)

DD F MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)
DD F MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 MM/YY (born on date)

Future Barrels will have all of the following information: DD, Construction Method (HF = Forged, BS = Button Swaged), MP, Caliber (5.56 NATO or 6.8 SPC II), Twist (1/7, 1/9, 1/11, etc), MM/YY

An example of the above would look like "DD BS MP 6.8 SPC II 1/10 MM/YY"

Got a question? Send us a message and we will respond as quickly and thoroughly as possible.


https://danieldefense.com/barrel-id

 

[The patriot]

Patriot,
The preferred and BEST method of securing the gas block was my question. However, I can see advantages to both methods of securing the gas block to the barrel.
A set screw improperly fitted and tightened can deform the bore! If it is use as part of the location of the gas block and in conjunction with a pinned block, I can understand that application. I wonder if there are torque specs for the set screw method. Do they use Loctite? Which formula? Red or Blue? High temperature?
This is another area that I will investigate more thoroughly.
With the use of light weight aluminum low profile gas blocks, I can see how Sticks is concerned about the heating/cooling cycle loosening the set screws.
A roll pin inserted through the block and sliding through a machined groove in the barrel on the bottom of the gas block journal would surely be an ideal set up as long as the hole in the aluminum gas block does not get wallowed out!. IMHO!

I use the loctite blue.

 

[GHarman]

Thanks Patriot. Good Information!
I was thinking about the "Clamp" on gas block.
http://www.fulton-armory.com/gasblockwtoppicatinnyrailsteelcompression875.aspx

Sticks has suggested the low profile block. This is fine for a fore end rail that covers the block.
I want to use the gas block to mount the BUS system front sight. It is then mounted to the barrel, not the fore end.
The first build will be a designated marksman/varmint rifle.
Thanks for your input, Patriot!
GregH

 

[Sticks]

Must be the week of losing posts.

HH summed up what I was trying to say about starting from an absolute blank. PITA, not for the first timer, and you end up with a bolt that is married to the barrel for life. Need a new bolt, here goes the long head spacing process again. Still should do it, I should probably have both of mine verified (I don't have any headspace gauges, and not that many gunsmiths have actual 5.56 Nato gauges - different from .223), but 99% of the quality barrels from Centurion, BCM, Etc, are good to go with a quality BCG.

I hope both of you are meaning Centurion not Criterion, or is there another flavor out there?

Both of mine are Centurion barrels. My middy is a 16" CHF chrome lined, with 8k+ rounds down range and shoots 1.25 MOA @ 100 (around the 7500 mark) with me behind the trigger (I am no marksman by any stretch of the imagination) using a RDS, and my 55gr reloads. That I can tell there is no throat erosion or any other issues with it, and I have only cleaned it 4, maybe 5 times.

My MK12 is an 18" Stainless barrel made by Compass Lake - same barrel issued to the Mil. and had 2k rounds down range, no accuracy tests yet, need to get my MK262 ammo dialed in and a proper scope. I suspect that it will be a MOA shooter as well.

HH - CHF and Chrome lined is the standard for just about all the AR players out there. DD, Noveske, Larue, BCM, Colt, etc. You can get Stainless as well, but the CHF and Chrome lined barrels have an extremely long life, upwards of 30k rounds. These are work rifles and are accurate for their design, generally 2 MOA or better with your average shooter. Stainless barrels are more accurate, but shorter life.

Greg - On a midlength gas system, using the gas block as the FS mounting, your are going to either have to get a cut out handguard or you will be stuck with a 9" handguard. Not sure what your reason is for wanting the FS on the gas block vs. mounting it to the handguard, unless you are getting one of those rail-less tubes.

The modern, quality, longer handugards mated up to the upper receiver are very rigid, gives the barrel a full free float, and are generally not an issue for front sight variation from shot to shot with irons. Having said that, one never mounts an optic (RDS, Holographic, or Scope) on the handguard or across the bridge for the reason of potential problems with holding zero. That is why we call them Back Up Iron Sights (BUIS). Due to my vision, I can't shoot irons worth a darn at ranges farther than 50y. Even closer in, it's still guess work but less chance of missing that 16" wide target, forget placing the shot in that preferred 4" circle. With the availability and quality of modern RDS and smaller scopes (where the failure has to be just about catastrophic other than a dead battery), Irons are really becoming a thing of the past.

Here is a videos by Daniel Defense that were meant to show off the durability of their rifles, but actually say worlds more about the durability of the Aimpoint RDS. Pay attention to the abuse that Aimpoint takes and still holds zero.

Anyhow, you also get into temperature changes and expansion which is insignificant at 50y, but will start to make a difference farther out, especially when your irons wheelbase (for lack of a better description) is only 12" to 14" ~ I'm estimating, to lazy to go measure mine.

If you are firm on an 18" or 20" barrel, I'd move up to a rifle length gas system, still good to go on the A5 receiver extension.

Bottom line, your rifle, you have to shoot it. My advice, take it as you will, is firm on one piece low profile gas block, pinned, and a 12" (16" barrel) or 15" (18" to 20" barrel) handguard/rail/forend/tube. The standard from the last 8 years in testing and development for the front sight is either a forged one piece FSP gas block, or low profile gas block and a rail height FS attached to the rail.

 

[GHarman]

Sticks,
I did some research on the Centurion web site as well as a general search. Their barrel discussion is impressive, and the MK12 barrel is EXPENSIVE!

Here are some links that I used in my research on the subject;
http://www.weaponevolution.com/foru...nturion-Arms-barrels&highlight=centurion+arms

http://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-116336.html

Nothing in stock, at this time.

Picked up the BCM Lower, today!
Should have the upper early next week. I was expecting it yesterday.
Nothing today.

GregH

 

[GHarman]

Heres a discussion with pictures land dimensions of the .223, .223 Wylde and standard 5.56 chambers.
Good information with links to more information.
GregH

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3832132.msg36326389#new

Heres one of those embedded links from the link above that goes really in depth on the differences. GOOD Information.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

GregH

 

[Sticks]

I wish I could tell you that the Mk12 Barrel is worth every penny, but I can't just yet. The reports that I have heard from others using it, and the fact that it is the exact same barrel that is used on the SEALS SPR is enough for me to take it on faith right now, and worth the wait (I waited for 2 months for the other two).

There are tons of people that claim to be getting sub MOA out of plain old CHF barrels from BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske, ect. They have the highest specs and standards for what they order from the manufacturer.

You can get a Stainless 20" 1:8 twist right now from BCM for $309, or either CHF or Stainless 16" 1:7/1:8 respectively starting at $239. Either of those I would expect 1 MOA or better.

Right now, if I had to replace either barrel and wanted to maintain accuracy, and Centurion was not an option, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense would me my choices in that order. I'm sure the custom barrel makers are good, but I have no point of reference to say go that route over the others just because they developed a niche in custom long gun barrels for being the best of the best, and dipped their toes in the AR world to get in on the rush.

Starting to ramble and tired of deleting long winded BS. At least you are not running in the "Gotta have it now" mode. Take your time, weigh your options and make the right choices. Buy once, Cry once.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Greg,

It's just like handloading. If you have a long OAL to get the bullet out on the lands so it's more accurate, you can't fire that round in something that has less throat... it might not even chamber. The long bullet seat gives minimal jump to the lands, minimizing bullet yaw, but increases pressure as the bullet has no jump to get going. We toy with the OAL repeatedly, trying to find that "magic" combination that will give us the best velocity and accuracy..... It's an infinite loop. :-laf Running a throater in a short throated .223 will make it capable of shooting 5.56Nato.

For chrome lined barrels... We've avoided them in match competitions for a great many years. The accuracy just isn't there. Sub MOA is possible, but not as likelyas with a custom mfg. The chrome lined are used by many military operations, as they are shooting military ammo. That's something to consider.... what bullets will you be shooting?

I'm usually looking for the most accuracy, so I use people like Krieger and Broughton.... The chrome lined barrels may last longer, but they usually don't shoot as well. When it comes to my ARs, I think Krieger, as they've been doing it for a long time, and it's not that they have just dipped into it. They've been building service rifle barrels for over 20 years, perhaps longer, including for the M14 and Garands. They know what they are doing. Now, my experience is limited on chrome lined barrels, and what little I have is negative. But when you start trying to taper bore a barrel to help with accuracy, I'm not sure that's the route I want to go.... The pressure curves are skewed when you start tapering the bore, and when you start using heavy bullets, it gets worse. If you're going to shoot mil spec ammo, with mil bullets, there is no concern.... but go to Berger or thin skinned match bullets, be careful.

FWIW, the 2013 Wisconsin state Service Rifle Championship was won with a Krieger barrel....

So, there you have opinions pointed from two ends of the spectrum.

 

[GHarman]

Brother HHhuntitall,
Yes, The Kreiger is #1 on my list with reservations. I believe Sticks idea is a high firing rate through the barrel.
With chrome lined bore, there would be no premature barrel failure.

Using a carbine with maybe 500 Rounds a day going down range, during training. I can see that scenario. However, no one is going to pay me to shoot!
Hand loading is what I have been doing for many decades and find the necessity of having a less than stellar performing rifle, less than exciting.
I'm still fine tuning the 30/06 I built 20+ years ago!:{
However, for a light carbine, I see a possibility. For that I could go for a chromed bore barrel and the light weight would appeal to my Family members, for now. I'll reserve the "anal retentive" voyage for accuracy/precision for me#@$%!!

For a Designated Marksman/varmint rifle upper, the Kreiger is, as I said #1. Now, I would LOVE to see how that Centurion and the Criterion barrels will shoot! I would really love to see what is out there and not buy blind. The Kreiger is available in the Preban HBAR contour. (That is about 6 oz heavier at 3# 6oz, IIRC) than the Centurion MK12 barrel (3#). Thats a little heavy. I would like to see the complete rifle to weigh less than 10# with optics and the VLTOR A5 Buffer assay and VLTOR butt stock.
Presently Kreiger has 4 HBAR 20", pre ban chrome moly blanks in inventory with a 1-6.5" twist! They need to be chambered, drilled for rifle gas port and fitted with an M-4 barrel extension (with feeding cuts). This will nail me at about $500 in round numbers.

GregH

 

[Sticks]

It's been a while since my Mk12 hit the scales, but IIRC she was 9.5# w/o the scope. DMR/SPR rifles are not light. Made for long range use, but capable of CQB use. Gotta love a good sling....

Just pulled her out of the case, 11.149# with scope, Harris bipod, BUIS, and sling, no mag ~ as seen in one of these threads, pic posted. The Magpul PRS stock is heavy, so the rifle is balanced well, so there is not much kinetic energy when transitioning between targets, but not something I enjoy standing and shooting all day from the shoulder.

My 16" comes in at 9.2# fully dressed with empty mag.

If we can ever get a nice day, we can get together and you can take them for a test dive.

Getting into the specialty barrels, I don't have point of reference, only with the main firearm manufacturers. I'd never heard of Criterion until here, and then I thought it was a typo for Centurion. Round count wise on the barrel I would hope would be a minimum of 10k on a stainless.

Cyclic rate is not so much of a concern, even for me. I am an aim and shoot trigger man, not spray and pray. Not a fan of doing mag dumps. A full day at the range for practice would be 300 - 350 rounds, if I had someone with me to run drills with. Just going out to blow the dust out of the action, and see if I can still call my shots is closer to 100 rounds.

550 max per day during an advanced operators training course, that is some hard shooting and still accounting for every projectile I send downrange (an absolute mandatory detail). A DMR class would probably be maybe 250 rounds a day on the high side (on my list of things I want to do).

 

[GHarman]

Sticks!
I'll bet that Ruger SR556 pushed that weight with everything attached, including the bipod. It was not a light weight carbine, in its original configuration.
GregH

 

[Sticks]

No, those piston guns are not light either. That is the tradeoff for a cleaner chamber and action vs. a DI gun.

In my Mike Pannone class, when we were doing the blindfolded malfunction clearing phase, my group had three 16" ARs in various configurations, and one 10" SBR suppressed piston AR. Huge noticeable difference in weight, felt like 3 pounds or more.

Tonight if I remember I'll switch my uppers around and see what the Mk12 upper weighs on my other lower that has the Vltor A5 and EMOD stock. Probably still going to push the 11# mark.

A 20" barrel, you are definitely going to be over 10# w/ optic, never mind the bipod. The barrel alone is going to be over 4#. Accept it, one can't build a DMR and be light.

Figure on a complete DMR field rig to come in around 30# with rifle, chest rig, 5 mags and 150 rounds of ammo. And if you are really foolish like me, you have the DMR in a 10# Eberlestock G4 operator pack with 100 rounds of Mk262, and 3 days worth of essentials, my 16" with chest rig and 6 mags/180+ rounds, probably weigh out north of 75#. Foolish. I always over pack.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Figure on a complete DMR field rig to come in around 30# with rifle, chest rig, 5 mags and 150 rounds of ammo. And if you are really foolish like me, you have the DMR in a 10# Eberlestock G4 operator pack with 100 rounds of Mk262, and 3 days worth of essentials, my 16" with chest rig and 6 mags/180+ rounds, probably weigh out north of 75#. Foolish. I always over pack.

75# is a bit heavy, even for me.... But, if the fit hits the shan, and you're out walking to get somewhere, you won't think so..... Besides, if you wear two or three days a week, you'll stay in great shape!! :-laf My bugout pack is almost that heavy.... Of course, I have a wife and two kids, now...

 

[BIGNASTY]

I would have to estimate that my BUG-OUT Pack weighs in about 3 or so TONS, animals included!!

 

[The patriot]

big, where are you going to bug out to?

 

[HHhuntitall]

He's headed to the guest quarters!! His wife got tired of his snoring, and kicked him outta bed!! :-laf Hey, wait for me!!

Well, now Big, if it gets that bad, I may be along those lines, too.... I'm just thinking when I gotta get the wife and kids out safe with no time to pack..... Besides, horse meat is supposedly really tender....

 

[BIGNASTY]

big, where are you going to bug out to?

If push comes to shove and the low life from the low life city's come looking for what the city's no longer have, they could come in Droves, Have dealt with the mass invasion game before but with different hardware!!! and lots more ammo than what I have. So if this happens I could be gone in about an hour or so, Panniers stay packed, equipment and animals ALWAYS!!! taken care of and food and feed cashes in place. Living off of what can be taken in the bug-out zone wouldn't be hard to do. But then again when the mass's come up, the bottle neck that they HAVE TO come thru would make for easy picken's from a LONG WAY OFF, one man with a talent can hold off quite a few!!!

He's headed to the guest quarters!! His wife got tired of his snoring, and kicked him outta bed!! :-laf Hey, wait for me!!

Well, now Big, if it gets that bad, I may be along those lines, too.... I'm just thinking when I gotta get the wife and kids out safe with no time to pack..... Besides, horse meat is supposedly really tender....

Don't have to eat horse or Mule, Elk,Deer, Mountain Chicken, Rabbit, squirrel and even fish ABOUND in the Bug-out zone.

Snoring is one thing that don't happen with me, there could be others that aren't to comforting but with a good woman (like I have) these don't happen any longer.


........... BUG-OUT ZONE how many low/life city dwellers you think could last here? :-laf

 

[BIGNASTY]

And I meen a LONG WAY OFF :-laf

 

[HHhuntitall]

Hell, Big, in that cover, they'd starve or freeze to death before they found me!!! Conserve ammo, let the weather take care of 'em.....