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Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting So, you're looking for advice on your first AR...
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Well, Gents, I wont be packing a 75# bugout bag any time soon
! Those days are over, for me:{!
I'll cover ya whilst ya make yer "Di Di Mau"!
:-laf
Sticks,
Hmmm, as far as a full blown HBAR, the barrels range from;
2.9# for a Criterion HBAR 20".
3.5# for a Kreiger DCM HBAR 20".
The SPR barrels are a touch lighter.
2#, 6.3 OZ for the Centurion Mk12, 18"
I could see that kind of weight for a HBAR 6.5 Grendel! But I really want to stay with the .556/223 family, for now.
Brother BIG!
Give Daisy a big cheek kiss right below her eye and blow in her nose as ya talk to her!:-laf An Apple helps, too!
GregH
! Those days are over, for me:{! I'll cover ya whilst ya make yer "Di Di Mau"!
:-lafSticks,
Hmmm, as far as a full blown HBAR, the barrels range from;
2.9# for a Criterion HBAR 20".
3.5# for a Kreiger DCM HBAR 20".
The SPR barrels are a touch lighter.
2#, 6.3 OZ for the Centurion Mk12, 18"
I could see that kind of weight for a HBAR 6.5 Grendel! But I really want to stay with the .556/223 family, for now.
Brother BIG!
Give Daisy a big cheek kiss right below her eye and blow in her nose as ya talk to her!:-laf An Apple helps, too!
GregH
Brother BIG!
Give Daisy a big cheek kiss right below her eye and blow in her nose as ya talk to her!:-laf An Apple helps, too!
GregH
I save that for Penny!!!!!
I was basing those weights off this post.
Arrrgh, bad math on my part. Was using 16" barrel as my base, not 18. Even then with the re-firgure it's 3.75# on a 20" (including muzzle device, gas block).
Did not get round to swapping uppers. Evil commute home last night with the last minute gift shoppers and stupid. I'll try again tonight as I have nowhere to be tomorrow morning.
Arrrgh, bad math on my part. Was using 16" barrel as my base, not 18. Even then with the re-firgure it's 3.75# on a 20" (including muzzle device, gas block).
Did not get round to swapping uppers. Evil commute home last night with the last minute gift shoppers and stupid. I'll try again tonight as I have nowhere to be tomorrow morning.
Last edited:
Sticks,
Did you ever get the chance to weigh your MK-12?
I'm still at a holding point. Have to do the Books ($) and see what I can
afford to do in January. I did not buy the Colt upper.
Looking at the build possibilities and would feel better assembling my own system.
Yes, Colts are nice and proven. I'm just not to excited about 2MOA performance.
Hope you had a Grand CHRISTMAS!!
GregH
Did you ever get the chance to weigh your MK-12?
I'm still at a holding point. Have to do the Books ($) and see what I can
afford to do in January. I did not buy the Colt upper.
Looking at the build possibilities and would feel better assembling my own system.
Yes, Colts are nice and proven. I'm just not to excited about 2MOA performance.
Hope you had a Grand CHRISTMAS!!
GregH
Greg -
Today I'll start swapping things around and post.
On another forum, I came across a thread where someone was rather disappointed with the end result of his 20" custom varmint AR. This guy has the experience, did the research, and everything looked good on paper. End result was that is velocities were way slower than they should have been by the math on paper and accuracy was going to suffer due to the slower velocities.
This was then confirmed by several others that went through the same thing. Consensus - there is little if any appreciable gains in the extra 4" of barrel. Further searching for research and found tests by other agencies to confirm his results.
He was expecting 160-200 FPS more velocity over his 16", and only got 80, and in one case, the 16 was actually faster.
It would seem that the theory of a longer barrel on a gas operated system really does not give you any appreciable advantage over a 16".
Here is a link to the thread. You might want to factor the information into your barrel decision.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-rifles-shotgun-discussion/181455-ar-223-556-longer-barrel-may-not-do-anything.html
After reading that....I began to wonder about my Mk12. I hope I will not be disappointed for the extra money I spent for that. Bad enough as it is that I could have picked up an AR10 for as much, just the cost of reloading for that goes up significantly.
I wish I could have given you a better answer on the accuracy of the Colt upper. I've not shot one, all I know is from what others have reported and 2MOA or better is what is to be expected (given most shooters are using factory ammo, not reloads), and they are being put to use by and large 100y or less.
I have zero experience shooting any other ARs than my own for accuracy. I've shot several others with the goal of placing my shots inside the 5"x3" rectangle, or keeping that suppressed full auto on the target, even grouping somewhat rather than a string.
Not that many people buy a civilian version of the M4 and plan to go tack driving with it. It's people like us that load our own ammo to suit the rifle, and have the skills ~ however rudimentary ~ to shoot accurately at range.
You pick the projectile to suit the twist rate and barrel length, use a powder with the proper burn rate for the barrel length and gas system, and adjust accordingly. This may end up being a rather tedious endeavor once you get the calculated projectile RPMs figured if you are over spinning or not spinning fast enough to have optimal stabilization. You may have to change projectile, powder, or both.
My Mk12 barrel was designed specifically for the 77gr Mk262 round. Somebody else did the work for me. I have the projectile that it was designed for, I now just have to pick the right powder and the right charge to get optimum performance because I am not buying Black Hills ammo for 5x what it will cost me to load it myself, and the powder they use is proprietary info. Powder burn rate for barrel length is something that I have not delved into even remotely. I am using the powder that a local gunsmith uses for the reloads that he sells.
I got lucky, plain and simple, with my 16" and am able to get 1MOA out of it using my reloads. If I had the time and money to try different powders I might get it to do sub MOA. My goal with the MK12 is to get sub MOA, and at most 5" at 600y on demand. First I need a proper optic. Then I can start to play with my loads (after I get the time, money, and a place to test).
Today I'll start swapping things around and post.
On another forum, I came across a thread where someone was rather disappointed with the end result of his 20" custom varmint AR. This guy has the experience, did the research, and everything looked good on paper. End result was that is velocities were way slower than they should have been by the math on paper and accuracy was going to suffer due to the slower velocities.
This was then confirmed by several others that went through the same thing. Consensus - there is little if any appreciable gains in the extra 4" of barrel. Further searching for research and found tests by other agencies to confirm his results.
He was expecting 160-200 FPS more velocity over his 16", and only got 80, and in one case, the 16 was actually faster.
It would seem that the theory of a longer barrel on a gas operated system really does not give you any appreciable advantage over a 16".
Here is a link to the thread. You might want to factor the information into your barrel decision.
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-rifles-shotgun-discussion/181455-ar-223-556-longer-barrel-may-not-do-anything.html
After reading that....I began to wonder about my Mk12. I hope I will not be disappointed for the extra money I spent for that. Bad enough as it is that I could have picked up an AR10 for as much, just the cost of reloading for that goes up significantly.
I wish I could have given you a better answer on the accuracy of the Colt upper. I've not shot one, all I know is from what others have reported and 2MOA or better is what is to be expected (given most shooters are using factory ammo, not reloads), and they are being put to use by and large 100y or less.
I have zero experience shooting any other ARs than my own for accuracy. I've shot several others with the goal of placing my shots inside the 5"x3" rectangle, or keeping that suppressed full auto on the target, even grouping somewhat rather than a string.
Not that many people buy a civilian version of the M4 and plan to go tack driving with it. It's people like us that load our own ammo to suit the rifle, and have the skills ~ however rudimentary ~ to shoot accurately at range.
You pick the projectile to suit the twist rate and barrel length, use a powder with the proper burn rate for the barrel length and gas system, and adjust accordingly. This may end up being a rather tedious endeavor once you get the calculated projectile RPMs figured if you are over spinning or not spinning fast enough to have optimal stabilization. You may have to change projectile, powder, or both.
My Mk12 barrel was designed specifically for the 77gr Mk262 round. Somebody else did the work for me. I have the projectile that it was designed for, I now just have to pick the right powder and the right charge to get optimum performance because I am not buying Black Hills ammo for 5x what it will cost me to load it myself, and the powder they use is proprietary info. Powder burn rate for barrel length is something that I have not delved into even remotely. I am using the powder that a local gunsmith uses for the reloads that he sells.
I got lucky, plain and simple, with my 16" and am able to get 1MOA out of it using my reloads. If I had the time and money to try different powders I might get it to do sub MOA. My goal with the MK12 is to get sub MOA, and at most 5" at 600y on demand. First I need a proper optic. Then I can start to play with my loads (after I get the time, money, and a place to test).
OK
My 16" middy weighs out at 9.22# fully dressed (Aimpoint PRO, Streamlight TLRS, Centruion 12" C4 rail, BFG Sling, Magpul AFG, KAC rail covers x2, Vltor Upper Receiver, PSA Auto BCG, Centurion 16" CHF barrel, A2 flash hider, PSA lower & LPK, Magpul MIAD grip, Troy abmi bolt release, mag release, and fire selector, Troy BUIS, Vltor A5 RE with Emod stock).
Upper w/o sling is 6.14#
Lower w/o sling is 2.14#
My Mk12 fully dressed weighs out at 11.149# ElCheapo 2.5-10x scope, Burris PEPR mount, Harris Bipod, Midwest Ind 15" SS tube handguard w/2 rail sections, Magpul BUIS, Surefire muzzle brake, Vltor Upper Receiver, BCM Auto BCG, Centurion MK12 barrel, PSA lower & LPK, Giessele FCG, Magpul MIAD grip, Magpul ambi bolt release, DPMS ambi fire selector, Magpul PRS stock, Rifle RE tube)
Upper is 8.121#
Upper w/o sling, bipod, scope is 5.46#
Lower w/o sling is 3.75#
Mk12 mated to my 16" lower is 8.26# (stripped)
Mk12 mated to my 16" lower with scope, sling and bipod is 10.73#
Numbers are close, like within 1/2#. Math is not agreeing - digital scale that was cold and I might have had something supporting one end while weighing a couple of things or balance.
My 16" middy weighs out at 9.22# fully dressed (Aimpoint PRO, Streamlight TLRS, Centruion 12" C4 rail, BFG Sling, Magpul AFG, KAC rail covers x2, Vltor Upper Receiver, PSA Auto BCG, Centurion 16" CHF barrel, A2 flash hider, PSA lower & LPK, Magpul MIAD grip, Troy abmi bolt release, mag release, and fire selector, Troy BUIS, Vltor A5 RE with Emod stock).
Upper w/o sling is 6.14#
Lower w/o sling is 2.14#
My Mk12 fully dressed weighs out at 11.149# ElCheapo 2.5-10x scope, Burris PEPR mount, Harris Bipod, Midwest Ind 15" SS tube handguard w/2 rail sections, Magpul BUIS, Surefire muzzle brake, Vltor Upper Receiver, BCM Auto BCG, Centurion MK12 barrel, PSA lower & LPK, Giessele FCG, Magpul MIAD grip, Magpul ambi bolt release, DPMS ambi fire selector, Magpul PRS stock, Rifle RE tube)
Upper is 8.121#
Upper w/o sling, bipod, scope is 5.46#
Lower w/o sling is 3.75#
Mk12 mated to my 16" lower is 8.26# (stripped)
Mk12 mated to my 16" lower with scope, sling and bipod is 10.73#
Numbers are close, like within 1/2#. Math is not agreeing - digital scale that was cold and I might have had something supporting one end while weighing a couple of things or balance.
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Sticks!
Thanks for the extra effort! I am not surprised at the weights.
Barrel make is still out. A 16" is still my choice for a carbine, but an 18" or 20" maximum for the "varminter" is still the plan. I read the links and have my own thoughts, but there are few more variables, not addressed in those links.
Getting good optics will cost more than a barrel. Was thinking about the Vortex 2.5 X 10 X32 MM FFP scope;
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x32-ffp-riflescope.html
because I can buy 2 for the price of this one(If I had the money, that is);
http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-nxs-2-5-10x32mm-250-moa-ptl-riflescope.html
For my needs, more magnification may be required, but these are good quality vs best quality scenarios
GregH
Thanks for the extra effort! I am not surprised at the weights.
Barrel make is still out. A 16" is still my choice for a carbine, but an 18" or 20" maximum for the "varminter" is still the plan. I read the links and have my own thoughts, but there are few more variables, not addressed in those links.
Getting good optics will cost more than a barrel. Was thinking about the Vortex 2.5 X 10 X32 MM FFP scope;
http://www.opticsplanet.com/vortex-viper-pst-2-5-10x32-ffp-riflescope.html
because I can buy 2 for the price of this one(If I had the money, that is)
;http://www.opticsplanet.com/nightforce-nxs-2-5-10x32mm-250-moa-ptl-riflescope.html
For my needs, more magnification may be required, but these are good quality vs best quality scenarios
GregH
Any good long range optic will generally cost more than the rifle holding it.
I personally am holding out for an IOR Valdada 2.5-10x -42mm. $1300. May as well be $13mil for all the money I have available right now. I can't even afford to follow my own advice and get a small personal loan to buy it. I don't have an extra $25 a week.
I don't know if you have kept up on that thread, but it did grow a couple more pages, and they did get into optics a touch. Might want to look at those as well.
I am kind of like you with the barrels. I want hands on results before I drop the money.
I posted that link because I have concerns that holding out for a high end 20" barrel, the end gain may not be what you expect or hope. You reload, so you have the advantage to tune the load to the barrel to get the optimum performance, whereas the guy in the thread was trying to find factory ammo to do what he wants, and not getting what he was expecting.
I know that Factory Match loads still have a large variance for what I would consider "Match Grade".
I personally am holding out for an IOR Valdada 2.5-10x -42mm. $1300. May as well be $13mil for all the money I have available right now. I can't even afford to follow my own advice and get a small personal loan to buy it. I don't have an extra $25 a week.
I don't know if you have kept up on that thread, but it did grow a couple more pages, and they did get into optics a touch. Might want to look at those as well.
I am kind of like you with the barrels. I want hands on results before I drop the money.
I posted that link because I have concerns that holding out for a high end 20" barrel, the end gain may not be what you expect or hope. You reload, so you have the advantage to tune the load to the barrel to get the optimum performance, whereas the guy in the thread was trying to find factory ammo to do what he wants, and not getting what he was expecting.
I know that Factory Match loads still have a large variance for what I would consider "Match Grade".
Ordered the barrel for the Marksman/Varmint upper. A Chrome Moly Kreiger with the 1-7.7" twist, M-4 barrel extension and threaded muzzle.
Barrel weight is 3.5# and chambered for .223 Wylde. The barrel will take 6 months before its ready.
So, sometime in June? Meantime, I will get the A-5 Buffer assembly and confirm compatibility with several free floating fore end systems.
The gas block journal is .750".
GregH
Barrel weight is 3.5# and chambered for .223 Wylde. The barrel will take 6 months before its ready.
So, sometime in June? Meantime, I will get the A-5 Buffer assembly and confirm compatibility with several free floating fore end systems.
The gas block journal is .750".
GregH
Sticks,
Would prefer to build the carbine upper if Centurion Arms would just get some 16" barrels in stock!
I talked with a tech at Brownells, yesterday. There was no feedback on the Criterion barrels.
He said that Spikes Tactical barrels were made by FN and were quality tubes? Would consider one of those also, but not an M-4 carbine profile.
One thing nice about dealing with Brownells for certain items. If you are not satisfied, you get a full refund!
GregH
Would prefer to build the carbine upper if Centurion Arms would just get some 16" barrels in stock!
I talked with a tech at Brownells, yesterday. There was no feedback on the Criterion barrels.
He said that Spikes Tactical barrels were made by FN and were quality tubes? Would consider one of those also, but not an M-4 carbine profile.
One thing nice about dealing with Brownells for certain items. If you are not satisfied, you get a full refund!
GregH
Centurions CHF and Spikes CHF barrels are both made by FN.
Same manufacturer, different end result specs.
The Spikes barrels are probably OK, but I would not choose a complete upper from them unless I had no other choice. I've already seen first hand the QC on their supposedly "Premium" rifles.
I'd read post #64 again for a better understanding of what I mean.
The Spikes barrels are probably OK, but I would not choose a complete upper from them unless I had no other choice. I've already seen first hand the QC on their supposedly "Premium" rifles.
I'd read post #64 again for a better understanding of what I mean.
Greg -
This I would buy, right now, no question.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-m4-premium-pro-stripped-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html
FWIW that is a $400.00 optic, and the upper assembly alone is worth $400.00.
I'd buy it for the optic alone and flip the upper for $300 - $400. Retire that old Aimpoint you have.
This I would buy, right now, no question.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/featured/psa-16-m4-premium-pro-stripped-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html
FWIW that is a $400.00 optic, and the upper assembly alone is worth $400.00.
I'd buy it for the optic alone and flip the upper for $300 - $400. Retire that old Aimpoint you have.
Last edited:
More like $150 for an auto BCG and plain CH.
That upper I presume you would use as a stopgap for the next 6-7 months, get the family out shooting with it, and toss it in the closet for a SHTF fall back 16", or sell it (upper only, keep the RDS) when you get your 20" done for $300+ as gently used, or put that old Aimpoint on it and get $600+.
4-6 MOA is the baseline, and much like the Colt, probably will get 2 MOA or better with reloads. YMMV
That upper I presume you would use as a stopgap for the next 6-7 months, get the family out shooting with it, and toss it in the closet for a SHTF fall back 16", or sell it (upper only, keep the RDS) when you get your 20" done for $300+ as gently used, or put that old Aimpoint on it and get $600+.
4-6 MOA is the baseline, and much like the Colt, probably will get 2 MOA or better with reloads. YMMV
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Sticks,
I have considered the cost of the stopgap, as you suggested Using Side-by-side buy lists! Having considered the costs associated with the existing build. My budget for this project will only allow one or the other.
I will continue on my course. The next purchase will be a 2nd BCM bolt carrier group, the VLTOR A-5 buffer assay and butt stock assembly, a BCM charging handle and a DPMS upper receiver vice block(recommended by VLTOR). I would also buy a second VLTOR MUR-1A, 'cept no one presently has them in stock.
Yes, I know, I am stubborn, BUT I am not a salesman, either! I have not had many good experiences , picking up good deals and moving them for a profit.
This is by no means the only avenue available for family shooting activities! But, I should have done this AR-build A LONG TIME AGO! Better late than never!
I do have the ability to get pictures on line, now, so that may bring further interest to the process? just have to TAKE THE PICTURES:-laf!
Yesterday and Monday I was checking on the Criterion barrels and found the "feedback" listed on Brownells web site. Contrary to the conversation with the Tech, on Monday, the feedback contained VERY Positive results. But like everybody else. None in stock. I believe this product will be the carbine upper barrel assembly. If I don't like the product I can get a full refund! Cant beat that guarantee! AND I do get a "dealer" discount from them, which will cover shipping. I've been a Brownells customer for more than 40 years. (Arrggghhh, I aged myself:-laf)
The 16" "Hybrid contour" is the #1 pick for the carbine upper the #2 pick is a Centurion or BCM.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-prod54733.aspx?avs|Cartridge_1=AJO_223 Wylde
Well, thats where we are, today!
GregH
I have considered the cost of the stopgap, as you suggested Using Side-by-side buy lists! Having considered the costs associated with the existing build. My budget for this project will only allow one or the other.
I will continue on my course. The next purchase will be a 2nd BCM bolt carrier group, the VLTOR A-5 buffer assay and butt stock assembly, a BCM charging handle and a DPMS upper receiver vice block(recommended by VLTOR). I would also buy a second VLTOR MUR-1A, 'cept no one presently has them in stock.
Yes, I know, I am stubborn, BUT I am not a salesman, either! I have not had many good experiences , picking up good deals and moving them for a profit.
This is by no means the only avenue available for family shooting activities! But, I should have done this AR-build A LONG TIME AGO! Better late than never!
I do have the ability to get pictures on line, now, so that may bring further interest to the process? just have to TAKE THE PICTURES
:-laf!Yesterday and Monday I was checking on the Criterion barrels and found the "feedback" listed on Brownells web site. Contrary to the conversation with the Tech, on Monday, the feedback contained VERY Positive results. But like everybody else. None in stock. I believe this product will be the carbine upper barrel assembly. If I don't like the product I can get a full refund! Cant beat that guarantee! AND I do get a "dealer" discount from them, which will cover shipping. I've been a Brownells customer for more than 40 years. (Arrggghhh, I aged myself
:-laf) The 16" "Hybrid contour" is the #1 pick for the carbine upper the #2 pick is a Centurion or BCM.
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-prod54733.aspx?avs|Cartridge_1=AJO_223 Wylde
Well, thats where we are, today!
GregH
Had some time to get things further down the road on my AR build. Thanks to Sticks, HHhuntitall and Patriot, and encouragement from BIGNASTY, I have a fairly good idea about how and where I want to be!
Today, I ordered a Vice/bench block recommended by VLTOR for their upper receivers for assembly and a receiver face lapping tool. Good "gunsmith"Oo. discount from Brownells! I also backordered the Criterion Hybrid, mid length gas system,16" barrel. It will be mid February on that one! Retail is $279.99 and my cost is $249.99. PLUS! A full refund if I am not satisfied!
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-prod54733.aspx?avs|Cartridge_1=AJO_223 Wylde
I have an order ready with BCM, for the VLTOR A-5 Buffer assembly and stock, a second BCM Bolt carrier Group and charging handle.
Waiting to receive the refund check from Ruger on this order. I could get a standard Mil-spec upper, but I believe I want to stay uniform with my BOM. Its a "gunsmith", anal retentive, nitpicking
premadonna welder thing :-laf
Yes, I have seen the discounted parts and lots of deals "but"? I just spent a year frustrated with a factory firearm that cost an arm and a leg with "0" satisfaction. MOF a Ruger Mini-14 could out shoot it! Further, I could buy those same Mini-14's for less than 1/2(I've seen a few for less than $500) the cost of an AR and not have any headache if I was satisfied with "Minute of Barn Door"!
Well, anyway, thats my thinking here. Why buy junk and be dissatisfied when you can get the better parts and assemble a quality piece?
Today, I ordered a Vice/bench block recommended by VLTOR for their upper receivers for assembly and a receiver face lapping tool. Good "gunsmith"Oo. discount from Brownells! I also backordered the Criterion Hybrid, mid length gas system,16" barrel. It will be mid February on that one! Retail is $279.99 and my cost is $249.99. PLUS! A full refund if I am not satisfied!
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-prod54733.aspx?avs|Cartridge_1=AJO_223 Wylde
I have an order ready with BCM, for the VLTOR A-5 Buffer assembly and stock, a second BCM Bolt carrier Group and charging handle.
Waiting to receive the refund check from Ruger on this order. I could get a standard Mil-spec upper, but I believe I want to stay uniform with my BOM. Its a "gunsmith", anal retentive
, nitpicking premadonna welder thing :-laf Yes, I have seen the discounted parts and lots of deals "but"? I just spent a year frustrated with a factory firearm that cost an arm and a leg with "0" satisfaction. MOF a Ruger Mini-14 could out shoot it! Further, I could buy those same Mini-14's for less than 1/2(I've seen a few for less than $500) the cost of an AR and not have any headache if I was satisfied with "Minute of Barn Door"!
Well, anyway, thats my thinking here. Why buy junk and be dissatisfied when you can get the better parts and assemble a quality piece?
Last edited:
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Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
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