Sobering info if you are not "legal."

[Sarge]

Well turboman, if your sig is correct and you have a 2500, and you are pulling 14K trailer with 95 gallons (760 pounds) of extra fuel, plus what ever added weight, your not even close to your GCWR. It's your choice. Your not only your own warranty station, you may also be your own insurance company if something goes sideways. I would probably take that info out of my sig. Why give the plantiff's attorney all the info he needs to take you to the cleaners... .....

 

[mhstevens]

I'm really not trying to be argumentative or cause problems--just trying to give people a heads up on what can happen. It all boils down to what you can convince a jury of. If you're confident in this day of unreasonable jury awards that your modifications are fine, then have at it. You know that Dodge will walk away from any liability, becuase the truck was used outside its designed specifications. The insurance company won't be party to defending or paying the claim, becuase you used the vehicle in a manner that wasn't authorized. I would hate to have to write the ticket, but in a death investigation, it has to boil down to what the rules of the road are--if the law is violated, then you can be held responsibile. I do know that we've investigated some pretty complicated wrecks, and people have been held liable that we wouldn't have wanted to. Ask the police officer that lost their job, spent a month in jail, and paid $1,000 fine, and their town paid a little over $100,000 to settle out of court for "careless involving death" for a simple misjudgement--that was a cop that nobody wanted to see punished. I wouldn't think that you're exempt because you're pretty confident in your driving skills.



As far as the DOT officer goes, his main interest is weight and licensing compliance. Most of the time there isn't a law enforcement type with them, and most of the time they aren't checking pick-ups. We do have two DOT certified officers with our agency, and they will decertify a vehicle on the spot for being over weight--which means you pay the federal fines for overweight, then you hire a tow truck to come get your rig, because you can't drive it anymore. We don't target recreational vehicles, that's not the goal. Its primarily aimed at the commercial haulers (and believe me, some are downright scary, I do stay away from most of them on the highway because of the numerous violations present), but the capability to check is there.



I'm not accusing anyone of being a criminal, and I believe that there is a design allowance for safety, so you are most likely doing everything safely. Ask yourself this, though--is everyone else going to do everything they're supposed to do? Ever had an idiot pull in front of you then slam on their brakes? If you can't stop, who gets the ticket? Do you want to be out of compliance when it happens? I'm just saying it affected my decision-making when I bought my vehicle because I've seen the results.

 

[Schicken bone]

i jsut read all the post on this thread and it seems to me that the biggest factor would be the state that the truck is registered in. my truck has a 24000# tag which is 1000# over the factory rating. who's wrong, the state or dodge? i personally think the trucks are way under rated. i had an 03 and with the camper i have now i was about 1000# over. with the 04 i am just under. the brakes are a little bigger but are they 1000# bigger? i could go on for days on this subject but in the end everyone makes there on decisions. if you are over weight, best of luck. i feel sure i will be one day but i try to stay as close as i can.

 

[mikel]

What I don't understand about all of this is when did the manufacturers get to start making law?



I mean, the GVWR etc. are manufacturer ratings that I would think are there for warranty issues more than anything else (if you put 35000lbs on your dually then don't expect warranty if the frame cracks).



I really don't understand how the exact same truck can have two different *legal* tow ratings based on if it has a 3. 55 or a 4. 10 axle ratio.



I really wish someone (and it would probably have to be the federal govt. ) would come out with nation-wide guidelines as to what a specific vehicle (3500dwr, 3500srw, 2500, etc) could have for all of these different weight ratings. Something standardized that would be applicable to everywhere in the states.



Alot of people put alot of effort into being within manufacturers ratings hoping that we are then legal but all the regulations and laws are not consistant.



In the past I have mentioned to several different officers the whole issue of being legal as far as weights are concerned and have heard everything from "It's not something that is checked on non-commercial vehicles" to "As long as you are not overweight on your tires then you are fine" to "Whatever is on the door jamb is your weight limit" to "Your registration is calculated based on the weight you carry, as long as you are not over whatever you are registered for then you are fine... "



Nobody seems to have a straight answer to the simple question of "What can I legally tow with my truck" so to me it's no wonder that so many people are out there towing overweight.



Mike

 

[SWC]

I have often questioned the factory tow ratings as well. How does the 4:10 ratio give the truck more capacity to tow a load safely over the 3. 73 or in my case 3. 54? To me it the most critical factor is brakes.

mhstevens not trying to pick a fight but to help me understand. In the example you gave, how do you determine the gcvw of a given vehicle. My truck only has the gvw listed on the pillar. My brother-in-law in Kansas spoke to a KHP who said if the situation was serious enough the gvw is what he would issue an overweight ticket on.

Getting back to brakes if I compare my truck to a semi-tractor unit and I was at the factory gcvw and the trailer brakes are good, I believe I could stop well within the distance (maybe 1/2 to 2/3) of a big rig loaded to gcvw. Or am I wrong. I have never had to nor tried to do this.

In Saskatchewan anyone towing something (RV) over 10000 lbs needs to get an endorsement on their drivers license. If you drive for pay over that weight you need a class 1. All good moves in my opinion.

Stan

 

[DPelletier]

This could go on forever. Bottom line: If you are over ANY of the manufacturer's ratings (tires, GVWR, GCWR, GAWR) you are taking a risk. Is it a reasonable risk? Maybe, maybe not, you get to decide.



Dave

 

[AlFischer]

Do Something

I feel that a responsible reaction upon viewing an idiot driving the at excessive speeds and with a 10k boat behind a 1/2 ton PU would be to use the cell fone, call 911 and suggest the CHP take the appropriate action BEFORE they have to respond to a multiple car tragedy. Just my opinion.

 

[lawdog]

Ok,I will chime in here with my expertise as a Police officer, Motor carrier Officer AND Fatal Crash Reconstructionist.



In the State of Michigan, we are an axle weight state. This means that in commercial vehicle overweights, we measure AXLE weights, not Gross weight. It is very possible, and happens, to get an overweight ticket and be under the gross Legal weight. Attorneys like to cry the "Mis-load" to get out of the big $$$ Overweight fines, but it all falls back to AXLE weight period.



Now, with the right combination of axles, tires, axle spacing and registered elected weight, an 11 axle semi Can legally scale up to 164,000-169,000 lbs



A standard single axle dump truck with a single dual wheel axle, with no other axle within 9 ft, can weigh up to 20,000 lbs on that single axle using bridge formula weights. if that is exceeded, it goes back to Normal loading which is 18,000 lbs.



Now, tire ratings get 700 lbs per inch of width IE: 10" wide tire can carry 7000 lbs, up to the previously listed max weight. axles in series (distance between center is more than 3 and less than 9 ft get 13,000 per axle, UNLESS it is a tandem assembly (two axles with a common suspension) then they can carry 16,000 per axle. AGAIN this is mainly for semi's as if you put 18,000 on the dually rear axle, you have issues.



For small trucks, they MAY be within the state AXLE weight limits, BUT, the exceed the MFG GAWR (Gross Axle weight rating) or GVWR or GCWR. the truck can be ordered parked and off loaded as it is then an "Unsafe vehicle on the roadway"



In a traffic crash that results in a fatality or possible fatality, we impound all vehicles involved, INCLUDING, their contents. Depending on the crash, we may or may not weigh the vehicles to get their ACTUAL weights, plus try and get the occupant weights as well.



As for fault, if little Suzy or Little Billy happen to blow a red light and smash into you and they die, they will still be at fault, BUT your vehicle WILL be inspected and ANY defect or illegal combination, weights, worn brakes, vision obstruction (you know, the air fresheners on the rear view mirror) will all be noted and documented. The entire report is turned over to the County Prosecutor for review and charges. Even if not charged criminally, you could be held civilly liable.



Now, here is a little math for you all to consider, next time you overload, or consider overloading.



A little formula for Kinetic Energy

KE=1/2MV2 (KE=1/2 x M x V Squared)

M= Mass

V= velocity (feet per second)



Just for arguments, I will use MY trucks GVWR and my Trailers GVWR and combine them (9900 + 14,000 = 23,900)

According to Dodge, I can tow 14,000 lbs, BUT my GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) is only 21,000 lbs the way my truck is equipped.



SO to get Mass we use this formula

(M= weight of object / g)

so (M= 21,000 lbs divided by g (g is a constant - Gravity - 32. 2)

so M=21,000/32. 2

M=652. 17



V= Velocity

Velocity is feet per second, converted from MPH

V=MPH x 1. 47 (MPH= Velocity Devided by 1. 47)

SO for this example we will use 60 mph as our base.



V= 60 x 1. 47

V = 88 FPS



So



KE = 1/2 times mass (652. 17) times Velocity squared 88 Squared (7744)



KE = 1/2 x 652. 17 x 7744



KE = . 5 x 652. 17 x 7744



KE = 2,525,252. 24 ft/lbs of energy



So basically when you are running 60 mph in your ram loaded at 21,000 lbs gross, you have the equivilent amount of energy it would require to lift a 2,525,252. 24 lb item 1 foot.



Now, take that semi loaded in Michigan at 160,000 lbs gross and it carries 19,239,735. 68 ft/lbs of energy.

Just something to think about next time you are crisng down the highway.



The standard "Over the road" tractor/trailer is grossing around 80,000 lbs OR

9,619,867. 84 ft/lbs of kinetic energy at 60 mph



You can also think about that at 60 mph, you are travelling 88 feet per secong AND that the average person has a perception/reaction time of 1. 5 seconds which means you just went 132 feet before you realized that there was a danger and reacted to it IE: braking or swerving

 

[catoiler]

Tell you about the stupidity of people,we were comming back from the river and this stupid woman in a Hyundai suv was towing a jet ski and flying down the I-15 so I speed up to her speed and she was doing 92mph with that thing on the back!And the trailer had those 12" diam. wheels. I think those bearings were at about 15000rpm!!

 

[Tcolesanti]

I would like to know whether this guy that had this accident had a bumper pull toy hauler. I've seen these guys that have there truck lifted so much they can't put a fifth wheel behind it. Bumper towing that much weight is dangerous by itself.

 

[ProspectorTim]

Aw don't worry about it, go ahead and tow whatever you want to...

But put your coffee down before you watch this.

 

[ndurbin]

When I tow overweight I usually don't go to far and I stay off major highways. There are acouple reasons I stay off major highways; 1 I can't control what soccer mom or Joe teenager does in their car, but passing Bill the farmer on the backroads realizes to be more careful around a truck with a trailer and 2 it causes me to go slower (since I do tend to have a heavy right foot sometimes).



Does that make it legal? no it doesnt, but I feel that when I do tow heavy I try to make it as safe for everybody as I can. I've pushed 25-30,000 lbs. with my truck and I feel comfortable doing it under the right conditions (backroads, 30-40mph, and only going a short distance). I'm not even going to try to pull that 25-30,000 lbs. down the highway even at 60 mph.



Know your limits (not GCVW, tire, axle, or GVW ratings) and stay within them.

Nathan

 

[Sarge]

Nathan, I can't say that I agree with towing that heavy, but I commend you for having the common sense to know where not to tow. Be safe out there... ..... Sarge

 

[EricBu12]

That FS3000 is a 3 axle bumper pull. as a Truck driver pulling doubles I have seen several bumper pull trailers rolled on their side most were due to gusty wind and maybe high speed as I have seen alot going over 70-75. I even saw a truck that was pulling a normal sized boat, not heavy, but rolled just the same due to sway and high wind. So That FS3000 even if it wasn't too heavy, it might have been a little over GVW of the truck... Even that is not too bad, but I bet he had big tires, lift, going too fast and with no reguard for anyone else so I'd say he got what he deserved.



Some people drive these RV's like a sports car, gotta get there fast, can't waste time, being cautious? whats that? I have a bumper pull Desert fox Toyhauler and I realized the dangers of a big TT so I bought the Hensley hitch which is $3000 and it is worth every penny. I have been in some high winds and I would have lost it if it wasn't for the hensley, makes it very stable but I don't push it because of it... ... Anyway, Usually most people have a 5th wheel and feel more confident even in winds so they go fast and most do OK but the danger is there with them as well.

 

[SnoKing]

mhstevens, I have no doubt that the example you used would be the outcome. However I am one of those people that question the factory tow ratings. I have always said that they seem to change based on the competition, more than any design change. Just step back 10-years and look at a Cummins equiped truck and compare it to todays trucks. To me there is not 10 cents worth of difference as far as towing ability, yet the ratings are several thousand lbs different. Do you think that your truck with 3. 73's would be more unsafe, than the 4. 10's. I can see a startabilty difference, so I can understand the factory rating might change, but from a safety stand point, I can't see the difference.



I will use an example also. If I take a "95" Dodge dually, hook up a 24 foot tandem dually trailer and haul 20,000lbs gross weight, I will be about 3or4 thousand pounds over. But If I hook up a "05" Dodge dually I will be about 3 thousand lbs under. Yet I feel that both trucks will safely do the job. I also say that if I license that "95" for 20,000 lbs I can go anywhere it the United States, and be legal. With your experiance, would I be wrong





"THANKS, NICK"

Nick, I went from a 1993 Dodge 4x4 Std Cab Cummins to a 2001. 5 Dodge 4x4 Std Cab Cummins and I can tell you that there is no comparison between the brakes on the two, with the 93 basically not having any. My 2001. 5 is a much more capable truck all the way around. Not quite as cute, but a much better truck. I towed the same 8K 5er with both and would never consider towing my new 11K 5er with that old 93. SNOKING

 

[WatsonJ]

GVWR and Cab over campers

I have a 2000 quad cab short bed 2500. I would like to buy a cab-over camper and have been aware of the overload issues vs the law/insurance etc.

The 1st thing I do when looking at a camper is look at the dry weight placard.

Have you readers noticed how much these things weigh? With a GVWR of

8800 lbs and an empty weight of 6000, I have only 2800 lbs to work with.

Only the smallest of the so called "lite versions" would work. (say 2000 lbs) However with a 250-300 lb tongue weight of my boat trailer and 400 lbs of people & dog, I am already at close to 8800 lbs BEFORE we add water/gear or options to the cab-over etc.....

I just bought this truck 1. 5 years ago and it only has 53k on it. !! But it looks

like I need a 3500. Am I correct in my thinking?

If I am correct, then I believe that almost every rig like this, that I see on weekends is also OVER GROSS.

P. S: the camper dealers all try to sell airbags as the cure but I'm not buying it. and a lot of the cab-overs that I'm looking at would over gross a 3500 as well. Bummed in PHX. Why even design/build something like this?

 

[NIsaacs]

WatsonJ, what you said is just about it in a nut shell. Years ago before GVW, GAWR, & GCWR pickups were rated as 1/2, 3/4, or 1-ton. That still holds true today. A heavy duty 2500 Dodge 4x4 will weigh 7,000lbs plus, if you add 3/4 ton or 1500lbs you will be at gross weight. Single rear wheel pickups are not very good at hauling much weight or towing heavy with the bumper. I limit myself at about 10,000lbs bumper trailer weight. Any time I want to haul heavy I use my dually. It also depends on how the weight is carried. If I haul 6,000lbs on my gooseneck ball I can't hardly tell it. But if I haul 6,000lbs on my flatbed, like hay or paletized loads that are wide and or high profile it's too much. Big overhead campers that are tall, wide and have overhang are difficult to haul, but put that same weight on a gooseneck ball or 5th wheel and the weight is easy. I'm not going to go into the legal part of being overweight this time, every time I do, I get in trouble by fellow TDR members :{





"NICK"

 

[ndurbin]

SRW pickups not having as much stability versus a DRW, has been a bunch of BS from my personal experiences. My 94 2500 handles my 24' x 6' (31' overall) stock trailer loaded down with cows just as well as my freind's 98 3500. The most I've ever thrown on the bed is 2000lbs. of feed and that made my truck handle like a dream.



Don't want to start a war but in my opinion/experiences stability is controled more by the center of gravity of the load and how it is loaded (tied down) than having a DRW.



Nathan

 

[DPelletier]

Well Nathan, I too don't want to start a war, but I disagree.

For towing a trailer the SRW is OK (except for likely being over GVWR on any large trailer or 5er), but for a slide-in the DRW is WAY more stable. I have both and I've used my slide-in in both. No comparison.



WatsonJ, your are on the right track.

- I don't now if your truck is a 4x4 or not, but my 2001 (LWB) auto 4x4 QC weighed 6950 lbs with me and a full tank of diesel. That left 1,850 lbs payload . In order to not exceed the GVWR I would have had to get a camper that weighed less than 1500 lbs loaded if I wanted to bring the wife and kids. This would have meant a camper with a dry weight of less than 1,000 lbs and no trailer. Now, before anyone gets thier panties in a bunch, of course the 2500 will haul more than 1500 lbs. My point is to illustrate how easily it can get over GVWR.

I had my Bigfoot 25C9. 5 (dry weight 2350 lbs, loaded weight wo water, 2714 lbs, with water 3217 lbs) on my 2500 and fully loaded with my cargo trailer (tongue weight approx. 750 lbs), I was over 11,000 lbs GVW on a GVWR of 8800 (over by 2,200 lbs).

The 2500 had the camper package, Rancho 9000's, load range E tires at 80psi and custom 5 leaf overloads and it handled it OK, but I was uncomfortable. The new 3500 DRW is much more stable (stock except for Ranchos) and is right at its max GVWR of 12,000 lbs when I'm all loaded up.



The amazing thing is that this camper is relatively light and I'm still right at max GVW. Bigfoot makes a 10. 5' 2500 as well as two 3000 series campers that are substantially heavier than mine. If you want to stay within the factory GVWR ratings, a 2500 is only capable of hauling a very light unit, a 3500 DRW is required for a mid-size to large unit and you would need an F-450 or F-550 to haul the largest ones with slides, etc. If you plan on towing a trailer, then the additional tongue weight makes the situation even worse.



Hope this helps,



Dave

 

[NIsaacs]

Nathan, I agree with you about a SRW pickup with a gooseneck trailer, they will haul a load in good shape. This goes with what you and I have said, about the center of gravity being important in any hauling situation. However as a 25 year veteran of the Logging & Trucking buisness you can't always pick your loads. You haul anything and everything that you are hired to haul. In this situation, you want a dually, trust me! Years ago before horse trailers were popular, horses were hauled in the back of a pickup. Put two horses in the back of a SRW pickup and see what happens, then try it with a dually. Or stick a tow bar on a like sized pickup as what you are towing with, then try it with a dually. I could go on forever with examples, but I think you get the picture. I am sorry if I have offended you with my earlier post, that wasn't my intention.





"NICK"