Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Solid copper bullets

[HHhuntitall]

Anyone seen and/or shot these? I had some similar, Lost River Technologies, at one time. They shot well, but the BC was only mediocre..... https://cuttingedgebullets.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MTAC_G08

 

[BIGNASTY]

What are the one's that Calif. Is making them shoot in wildlife area's ( no lead ban) I shot those and they didnt fly rite or something was wrong same weight and everything else. Just didnt get the accuracy out of them for some reason. I dont think I would shoot game with none expanding. Punch a hole and they wouldn't even know it.

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, I've visited their site a couple of times. CNC lathe turned projectiles are interesting in that the meplat can be made almost 0. 000". Only Barnes makes a bronze solid with a sharp meplat.

I see you tried the 6. 5, did you try any 7MM? The only . 30's that I see that would match my equipment properly are their 150's and the 165 Gr. offerings.

Did you examine any recovered copper bullets from your tests? GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

What are the one's that Calif. Is making them shoot in wildlife area's ( no lead ban) I shot those and they didnt fly rite or something was wrong same weight and everything else. Just didnt get the accuracy out of them for some reason. I dont think I would shoot game with none expanding. Punch a hole and they wouldn't even know it.

I'd have to agree about the non-lethality on some. Barnes non-lead bullets are designed to expand, though, unless they're monolithic solids. I'm not sure which ones you got in Cali. Many are BEB. Brass enclosed Base. They'll use powdered steel, iron, bismuth, etc to press into the jacket, and if not pressed very hard, they're crap.



GHarm, Here's a pic of the Lost River 6. 5mm. There's a 136gr? bottom right(one severed on a rock), 144 bottom left, and just for kicks, the 647gr Winchester AP, . 510 top right, and 750amax, top left. The 6. 5s were recovered in black clay dirt, very little rock, from 400yds, the . 510s were dug up from 850 in a tank dam. The small aluminum rods are the center cores and aluminum tips. I was shocked at how well they maintained their shape..... the 144s flubbed. They shot around a 6" group. The 136 shot around 3". Not bad, but the rifle can do better. Notice the long bearing surface... I should have measured that. And no scale, except the . 510 bases... .

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall, Thats a good test! I'm amazed thet the aluminum cores from the . 510" Hornadys are in that good of a condition! Could you tell if the 6. 5's had protruding fins where the lands engraved into the bearing surface at the intersection of the boat tail and bearing surface? GregH

 

[AMink]

I have used the Barnes Tipped TSX in . 338 Win Mag, 210 grain. I had a one shot kill on a bull elk with less than perfect placement. The bullet passed through the animal and on first inspection, we thought it didn't expand (no big exit wound). On closer inspection, when we removed the hide, the damage was massive. The hide separated from the muscle and made a small hole in the hide, but the meat/bone damage was traumatic. I also bagged a cow elk last year with the same load. Operator error resulted in an entry on the left rear haunch with the bullet recovered between the right front shoulder and hide. Bullet retained all weight, except for the tip. Perfect mushroom. I also used the Barnes TSX (no tip) in 6. 5x55 130 grain on a small mule deer buck. Dead is dead. In both those guns, hand loads produced good results. I'm sure with more powder and testing I could get better.

I think the non-lead bullets are long for weight and can provide better BC in some cases. I haven't tried any other no-lead because these have worked well.

The pics are of the . 338.

 

[HHhuntitall]

GHarm, The lands marks are definite, deep, and sharp. The long bearing surface, you would think, would make them stabilize more easily, but they wouldn't shoot. The 144s would tumble in one rifle. I didn't do a whole lot of testing; the bullets cost around a $1ea!! Those 750 A-max expanded well. I think they would do well hunting. The aluminum core will penetrate, and the jacket would peel back around it... . there was shrapnel from the jacket all in the dirt. Think those would work on praire poodles?



AMink, I've shot quite a few of the barnes. I used their blue moly coated bullets in a . 270 I built for a guy. They were destructive on hogs, which means they're good bullets. I've had problems with accuracy between lots, though. I want a bullet that shoots sub 1/4moa, so if I miss, it's my fault. Sometimes they'll do it, sometimes they won't. They used to make the absolute best . 243 bullet you could find anywhere for medium game. I use them in the . 510 pretty much exclusively, now. I like the higher B. C. s of the Sierra and Berger bullets for my smaller bored rifles. For large game, I might have to go back, but I don't have any desire to hunt lions, elephants, or big bear. For customers, I will use them if they are going to Africa or large game hunting. They are the best bullets on the planet for that, I think, and i cut the chambers, and more specifically the throat and lead, to match the factory ammo they'll be shooting. It makes them much more accurate. Now pistols, that's a whole other game, there. Barnes is a major contender in that field, in my book... . as short as it may be... :-laf

 

[AH64ID]

I grew up on Barnes. While they are little bit of a bear to get your gun to like (thou they are 10x better than 15 years ago) they are worth it in the end. They fly great and kill better!

 

[BIGNASTY]

I dont see how you can say they kill better? As long as I remember there has only been 1 degree of DEAD. You guy's can talk about the BC and all the other bullet abbreviations and it will be over my head for the most part. I have seen more than my share of PREMINUM bullet explode like 200gr varmint bullets. One reason is that they are pushed to fast and contact game at to close of a distance. IE 30/378 . 308 slugs are mostly made to work at or close to 06 or 300 Mag velocities. BIL use to shoot 30/378 and the bullets would just EXPLODE and destroy meat like it was hit my a train. He started to make a effort to shoot game at very long distance in order to let the round slow down. I thought that was kind of counter productive. Yes it was still the same degree of dead but at what cost longer shots on game make it risky more of a chance of a wounded animal or a miss. I started using the 338/378 and use bigger heavier better constructed bullets. Sure you can buy the Barns/Swift and a host of other high dollar bullets but they sometimes dont work as most are advertised. I have used an off the shelf bullet Nosler Partition / Accubond with better success than the high dollar stuff. I think the reason for this is that I still dont shoot at game any closer than 300 to 350 yards. I dont load to max velocity as it's not the most accurate anyway. I was taught to hunt by a very smart guy in my opinion MY DAD. Our way of thinking was that the bullet should not penetrate the game instead expend all of its energy within the game if not and it goes clean thru the only thing you have proved is that your gun of choice can blow a hole clean thru the game and that you can loose the energy out the other side of the hole. I have shot the Partition for the last 6 years of hunting ELK and Mule deer. Elk all have been shot at 400 to my limit of 800 yards the bullet on the 400 yard shots were never recovered as I thought. And it went thru both sholders and the neck spine connection and the exit wound looked a mess lot's of DAMAGE for sure but stll dead. The game just jumped like a bug bit it took a few steps and dropped like a sack of rocks. The longer shots the same dead but the bullet stayed in the game and usally KNOCKED THE SOB off it's feet. the bullet was a mess but just under the skin and it looked as thou less meat damage. Same range High dollar bullets my BIL and 600 yards has yet to recover a bullet for inspection. And the game took a few steps before it dropped. Our findings were the same on my Wife's 300 WM . Hope this made sense.

 

[AH64ID]

That is the #1 benefit to a solid copper bullet, they don't explode! That makes for a cleaner, quicker kill... and IMHO that's a better kill.

There is only 1 degree of dead, but there are lots of degrees of lost meat from exploded bullets or too much energy transfer. I would much rather get a clean shot thru the bread basket and let the Elk walk 100 yards than hit in the shoulder and have it drop and lose a shoulder or two of meat.

Sometimes I get bullets back at 75 yards, and sometimes not at 375 yards. I shoot 200gr Swifts at 3000 fps from my 300 H&H for elk and 140gr Barnes at 3000fps from my . 280 for deer. The bullets may cost a little more, but I know how they preform, know they preform better and when only shooting a few a year the cost is hardly more than a drop in the hunting fund bucket.

You do have to be smart about your loads thou!

When my supply of A-Frames runs out I will probably try to get a Barnes TSX loaded up for my 300. Not that I don't like the A-Frame's I just happen to like the Barnes a little better, to include the reduced drag from the TSX design. . I do moly coat as well.

 

[HHhuntitall]

LOL, yes dead is dead, but you have to hit what you aim at!! That's my major concern. I like to spine animals, given the opportunity, which sometimes results in a miss, but it's a clean miss. The Barnes, Hornady, and Nosler are known for overpenetrating lighter animals. Yes velocity has a lot to do with that. It's hard for a bullet company to design one that will stay together going through bone, yet penetrate to vitals and still do enough damage to drop the animal. In your case, with high velocity, the Nosler and Barnes would be good choices, IMHO. Altogether, that's why we practice and experiment, to excel at killing and do it quickly. It's like why I like to stalk my game before shooting it. I can, and often do, shoot game out several hundred yards. But more regularly, I usually shoot a good deer at a much shorter distance, just because the thrill of the stalk, hence the name "Hunting. " Hogs are the enemy, so I kill at any given opportunity, range, shot, whatever I can to make a kill... ... . I've shot several that the light skinned match bullet went completely through the animal, only to be found just under the skin on the other side. I've not lost any in a very long time, and not tracked down any that I've shot in a long time, either. So results vary with shooters, firearms, and game. I've got a . 264WinMag that routinely blows up bullets. I have to shoot the 155 Lapua bullets to slow it down and make it stay together. The Solid copper bullets are not designed for hunting. I was asking about these bullets, expecting only a match shooting experience, and in regards to accuracy. I wouldn't want to use them for hunting, except maybe on hogs. I use API 62gr 5. 56Nato rounds on hogs in my AR. Not much else will knock them down in that caliber.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Same theory of hunting I really like that. I was taught that we owe it to the game to take them quickly. And I think it makes the Meat taste better. I hunt for the excitement as I still get all WOUND UP that's the part I like ( and smoked Elk ribs with lucciels BBQ sauce) is to DIE FOR. Going with my BIL we get to see allot of different choice's of equipment. And for sure some of these guy's could use some practice. If it were me I wouldnt give them a Red Rider BB gun as they mite hurt themselves with that. Sounds like I wouldn't want to be a pig in Texas, Ive been waiting to see that new TV show American Hogers they look like something that I would only want to see thru the magic of TV and you could get hurt just doing that. Well tomorrow is the start of another hunting season Ive packed and repacked the repack of the repack. My wife just laughs as she see's her brother and I are the same. We are taking a couple from CO and the others are from where I use to work. Just hope the folks from CO have a sense of humor if not they mite when they get back.

 

[AH64ID]

I was taught that we owe it to the game to take them quickly. .

We also owe it to them to not waste the meat. I am very opposed to the intentional shoulder shot, nothing more than a waste of an animal. I do understand it happens from time to time unintentionally, but to purposely take a shoulder shot is careless hunting.

I am not insinuating that's how you hunt, just my personal beliefs.

The Solid copper bullets are not designed for hunting. I was asking about these bullets, expecting only a match shooting experience, and in regards to accuracy.

I completely missed that. I had a hard time getting some 53gr solid Barnes to pattern in my . 22-250, but from what I gather all Barnes are hard with the . 22-250.

 

[BIGNASTY]

actually its called the high shoulder shot but Its not actually the shoulder, Ok that sounds weird I tried to find an article that I read the other day in one of my Hunting Rag's. The point of the shot will be at the point or intersection of the spine / neck /brest/and shoulder so in essence your stoping ALL communication from the brain to the rest of the body and in most cases it's like someone kicked their legs out from under them. As far as meat loss more of the neck some brisket and ya some shoulder. But one thing about it I dont have to chase them down. I have been with clients of my BIL's and they missed the shot (hit the animal ) but casing down an ELK that has been hit WRONG over 2 mountain passes is not my idea of having a great day. As You know that they can cover a HUGE amount of ground fast. There has been MANY nites out on trail for the Guide and Packer tracking game because of this. The client is usually in camp having dinner and will see his prize when I OR WE get it back to him. As you say it's different and that's what makes it hunting. My Dad always went for the Hart behind the shoulder it was so MUCH BLOOD I just adopted the so called high shoulder shot.

 

[HHhuntitall]

As a kid, I used to shoot for the shoulder. My dad didn't want me taking a neck shot until I was older. I made the decision for him when I got to be 10-12 or so. I lost a deer from a shoulder shot, which I was pretty sure was well placed. I was shooting Barnes 117 gr round noses in a 6mm rem, and it just punched a hole through him. I tracked him until dark, but no sign. Lost the blood trail at about a mile. He probably died and I never found him. I even watched for buzzards the next few days, but no luck. After that, I swore I'd only shoot for the neck or high shoulder. The last 4 I've shot(for myself) in the last 10 years have all been clean, one shot kills, with one shot to the neck either in the Adam's apple or in the ear(which was a misjudement of range and altitude. The bullet shot about 6" higher than I thought!!) In one ear, and part of the bullet came out the other. Talk about a one shot kill, and NO wasted meat!! Not that I'll try that again, though.



But the bullets I listed at the top, and those Lost River's I had a pic of, they are designed specifically for target use. I wouldn't want to shoot that at anything but a hog. The AP mil surplus ammo is ok for hogs, too. I just want a kill. I've got some . 308 surplus, too. In the 223, the 62AP is about the only thing that will take a large boar down. Nothing else will penetrate deep enough to get the job done, and a running head shot in oak shinnery is beyond my skill level... ... the APs get through the brush, and penetrate, making a kill. Of course, you have to be mindful of what they are, too. NO shooting around cattle or horses, period!! Or anything else you don't want small holes in!!



Heart shots are ok, but I saw a British Columbia moose run 1/2 mile, cross a river, and stand looking at us for a few minutes until it died. It's heart was jellied, but it still ran all that way!! On another hunt, I saw a guy shoot an elk, and it was a clean heart shot, but it ran almost a mile downhill. NOT FUN!! I had to pack it out 200 yards by foot to my horses, as it was too rough to take them down. That sucked. After that, I always back my clients up. I use a . 270 or . 284Win, and clients will scoff at it until they empty their rifles at a gut shot bull running away, and I drop him with a single spine shot!! I'm not tracking another one for 10 miles. And they're not going to camp, either!! Screw that!! They shot it, they're there for the hunt, they're going!! When they get too tired to go on, I tell them to stay put until I come back for them. They'll earn supper when we get back that night!! No more of that waiting at camp BS!! Learn to shoot or don't come with me!!... ... ... ... sorry, kind ranting there... . I don't do that anymore, and that's why!! My job was to get them into a comfortable distance to shoot the animal, but many just can't shoot. I don't do that well in public, I guess. I don't think I'd keep a job at a counter for more than 20-30 minutes... ... . or the first a-hole that came in, whichever happened first!!

 

[AH64ID]

Aside from one elk with a bad shot on the fly that hit a little low (had it been a high shoulder shot it would have destroyed both shoulders), every elk I have shot, deer too, have dropped in their tracks or within 100 yards. Easy to track and find, and rarely any meat loss. Even that one I was a little low on we got within 250 yards.