Sorry, no 2007's allowed...

[TowPro]

Sulphur is not a lubricant. where this idea comes from is in the 80's when they reduced the Sulphur last time, the processes of removing the Sulphur also removed other "lubricants" from the fuel. that's when the VW rabbit was king. Some guys started adding ATF to the fuel as a lubricant which was even worse. ATF has friction modifiers in it that would actually score the sides of the injection pumps.



At least that's how it was explained to me by an ex girlfriends father who is a chemist for sun.

 

[Jeepr]

So, does anyone know, are our pre-2007 trucks going to be able to burn the 15ppm stuff? I'm assuming that if they are redesigning the engine to accept the stuff that our's won't like it.

 

[gitchesum]

Ultra Low is hitting the stations starting next month. There will be a one month transition period when the ULSD and normal LSD will be blended in the loading terminal tanks as well as the fuel station tanks.



By July, everything will be ULSD.





FYI, most of the warning are related to the particulate filters that will be installed on the 07 and up motors. The higher sulfur fuel will emit more particulates that may clog that filter.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Ultra Low is hitting the stations starting next month. There will be a one month transition period when the ULSD and normal LSD will be blended in the loading terminal tanks as well as the fuel station tanks.



By July, everything will be ULSD.

You have to assume that the fuel will have enough lube in it to not break other stuff. Can you imagine the kinda of issue and law suits and whatnot that would be had if this breaks older motors?



Minnesota has B2 already, that should just be enough to prevent breakage.

 

[TowPro]

But they been running it in Europe for a while now with no problems.

 

[Buffalo]

For example, those of us living in Western States that are serviced with fuel that is manufactured in CA. , we have been getting ULSD for quite awhile, now. In the beginning, there appeared to be not enough lubricity in that fuel.



Bosch was seeing extraordinary wear problems associated with these fuels & was recommending aftermarket lubricity additives be added to the fuel.



From what i've just heard, these problems are going away. So, the need for extra lubricity appears not to be as necessary as it was last year.



I've not heard of many problems associated with the use of the ULSD. I will continue to use an additive, just to be on the safe side & I bought a case of the stuff.



Like someone else said, I think the big problem will be if someone with a new '07 accidently gets ahold of some old 500 pm Low Sulphur diesel. The extra sulphur will probably play havoc with the particulate trap & possibly some of the other emissions stuff.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[gitchesum]

But they been running it in Europe for a while now with no problems.

Not quite, European diesel has a max sulfur content of 30 ppm, the new US fuel will contain half the sulfur.



As far as lubricity, all the truck loading racks have a lubricity agent injector to add the lubricity agent to the fuel as it is loaded in the truck. Feel free to add additives, it won't hurt anything, but it's not neccessary.

 

[BigEasy]

I've already run ULSD in my truck... I haven't noticed any changes other than the exhaust smell isn't as strong...

 

[bighornram]

Biodiesel even at b2 (2%) increases the lubrication capability of the fuel to a higher level and is more efficient at it than sulfur. Statistically something like 45% of the passenger vehicles in Europe are diesel. Biodiesel has the approval of the manufacturers there because it is well regulated there. Burn fries.



This discussion makes me wonder how DC can criticize biodiesel, Chrysler threatens to "void warranty" from BD use and they are going to sell this crappy ULSD fuel to us. How deep are their pockets and at whose expense?

 

[Buffalo]

Big Horn Ram,



At a recent seminar, I attended, given by Mr. Dennis Hurst (the Head Man at Cummins Mid-Range Engine Plant in Columbus, IN. ), he stated Cummins concern with the lack of regulation of biodiesel. Often, you don't know exactly what you are getting & they don't want to warranty the engines when an inferior fuel possibly may be run in them.



The way I understood it, the very low levels of biodiesel (B2-B5) are OK with them because the concentration is so low that it can't hurt anything. But, they don't want to approve the use of all Biodiesel's because they have no way of knowing the concentration we will choose or how it's manufactured.



He stated that Minnesota, I believe, is using B2 in all the diesel being sold in the state.



BTW, we've been getting ULSD, here in AZ. , for over a year, now, & I haven't noticed any problems with it. Some call it "crappy" but, I haven't noticed that nor has anyone I have spoken with.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Nelssen]

Buffalo,

I too live in the Phoenix area. Are you saying USLD is everywhere in the valley or are you going to specific stations to get it. Is there a sticker on the pump identifying USLD?

 

[Buffalo]

Nelssen,



I don't know about the ULSD stickers on the pumps. I've never looked for them.



Most of the fuel I get is from the Flying J at 67 Ave. & I-10.



I got this information at a seminar given by the Bosch Rep. from the Las Vegas Bosch repair facility. He said, last year, that a lot of the diesel distributed on the West Coast is manufactured in CA. The only fuel they manufacture there is ULSD.



We are supposed to get diesel from CA & TX, in the Phoenix area. I believe the majority of it comes from CA, which, would be ULSD. I really don't know what TX is sending us. I know they have been manufacturing some ULSD in TX.



At last years May Madness, where I attended the seminars, the Bosch Rep said that if we were living anywhere near the West Coast, there was a good chance that we were being serviced with CA, ULSD diesel fuel. He went on to say that Bosch Hdqt's had sent a bulletin to all their field offices warning them that they were seeing an unusual number of fuel delivery system failures that could be directly related to the lack of lubricity in the ULSD. The recommendation was to use some sort of fuel additive that enhanced the lubricity of the fuel.



At this years May Madness, we were treated to another seminar, given by the same gentleman. He made no mention of the need for additional lubricity, at this time. After the seminar, I asked him if there was still a need for the additive. He said that from what they have seen, the low-lubricity problem has been addressed, by the fuel manufacturers, & that it is nowhere near as critical to be using a lubricity additive.



Another interesting thing he had said, last year, was that if we lived near a military installation that had jet powered aircraft, that it would be a good idea to fortify our diesel with a lubricity additive. The reason was that jet fuel is a very dry form of diesel that has to be very pure for the military to use it in their engines. If it is contaminated with any #2 diesel fuel additives, the government refuses delivery & that fuel is delivered to the local diesel fuel market for distribution to us. They add additives to make it compatible with #2 diesel but, how do we know that the tank farms put enough additive in the jet fuel or if it was spread evenly through the entire load of jet fuel.



Bosch Hdqt's had noticed an increase in fuel delivery system problems that they were able to trace to inadequately lubricated jet fuel that was sold to the general public.



As you know, we have Luke Air Force Base located on the west side of the Phoenix Valley. So, we have the potential for the same kind of problem.



Personally, I'm choosing to run an additive just to be on the safe side.



Joe F. (Buffalo)

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I've already run ULSD in my truck... I haven't noticed any changes other than the exhaust smell isn't as strong...

As an observation - you could probably get by running Wesson oil in your crankcase too - for a little while!



But unless you have been running the ULSD for a significant amount of time/miles, short time impressions probably are not a good indication of what might happen under long term use...

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

IF we are now seeing - and using add-in lubricity products to provide the lubrication that was at least part of the longevity of the traditional diesel engine, and doing it because newest diesel fuels are getting ever closer to gasoline-like fuels, is there a point where the same addition of lubricity additives would also become beneficial in extending the lifespan of gasoline engines?



With many gas engines now delivering 200-300K miles before overhaul, diesels have seemed to pretty well lost that traditional advantage...

 

[Silver600]

For example, those of us living in Western States that are serviced with fuel that is manufactured in CA. , we have been getting ULSD for quite awhile, now.

The Pacific Pride in Sacramento where we fill our ambulances has had ULSD for a while but it is on its own pump. The rest of the pumps are 500 ppm LSD. I haven't seen a fuel station that sold only ULSD yet. The school districts in Sacramento have been running ULSD for a while in their newer buses.

 

[FATCAT]

No, the fuel currently in the system is the old stuf (500 ppm sulfur). The new stuff (15 ppm sulfur), though available in certain areas of the US, hasn't hit all the fueling stations yet. I suppose (just my guess) in areas in which it is available, the fueling stations have to put up stickers letting you know what your buying. Here's a map showing the availability.



http://www.epa.gov/otaq/retrofit/fuelsmap.htm

I wonder if certin companies are using the new stuff. Here in New Hampshire, in my little town there are three stations. I had always filled up at Shell for the truck and my VW. But up till about a month and a half ago I switched to Irving diesel.



Just before I switched to Irving, my VW and truck ran TERRIBLE with the Shell diesel. The truck (which always gave me about 17 1/2 - 18 mpg in the winter droped to 15 - 15 1/2 and I'm sure a kid on a scateboard could beet me in 1/4 mile race. My Jetta also lost about 2 - 3 mpg and was very sluggish. Even loading up on Standyne in both viehicles didn't do anything to aliviate the problem.



After I switched to Irving, the car and truck began to run better and the mpg returned to normal.



I wonder if Shell here in NH is using the stuff ... if so ULSD is awaful!!! Better prepare for poor performance and terrible fuel milage.

 

[grabinov]

The Arco station in my neighborhood (the only convenient diesel) has been selling ONLY Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel for as long as I've had my '04 truck, and I've been running it the whole time with no problems (that I can tell). I can't see why you'd need to use an additive to run a 3rd gen on ULSD. Of course, an 07. 5 motor with the particulate filter on it will ONLY run on ULSD, but that is because of the design of the exhaust system, not the engine...

 

[SpicyJam]

Here some sad news, I recently sent in a set of customers injectors to Haisley to have them checked out. They have about 40,000 miles on them and 5 of them are bad..... and 1 marginal. I asked what has happened to them, they ran fine when in the truck but left some funny marks on the pistons that I have never seen before.

Well after Patty sent them to Schieds she also asked what was going on, "lack of lubrication" is what I was told... ... . so now they need new nozzles and the ULSD is not even out yet, I am just passing this along as additives are going to be needed all the time... ... . later Jim



BTW this was a Minnesota truck... .....

 

[JasonCzerak]

Here some sad news, I recently sent in a set of customers injectors to Haisley to have them checked out. They have about 40,000 miles on them and 5 of them are bad..... and 1 marginal. I asked what has happened to them, they ran fine when in the truck but left some funny marks on the pistons that I have never seen before.

Well after Patty sent them to Schieds she also asked what was going on, "lack of lubrication" is what I was told... ... . so now they need new nozzles and the ULSD is not even out yet, I am just passing this along as additives are going to be needed all the time... ... . later Jim



BTW this was a Minnesota truck... .....

Maybe I"ll sell or park my truck when that SRT-8 6 speed manual Changers comes out. And wait this ULSD stuff out.



This is going to be insane. .



What about 8oz of MMO per tank, this should cover the lube thing right? I been MOSTLY doing that MMO during the spring here once the fuel switch, durning the winter I use PS and MMO every tank.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Here some sad news, I recently sent in a set of customers injectors to Haisley to have them checked out. They have about 40,000 miles on them and 5 of them are bad..... and 1 marginal. I asked what has happened to them, they ran fine when in the truck but left some funny marks on the pistons that I have never seen before.

Well after Patty sent them to Schieds she also asked what was going on, "lack of lubrication" is what I was told... ... . so now they need new nozzles and the ULSD is not even out yet, I am just passing this along as additives are going to be needed all the time... ... . later Jim



BTW this was a Minnesota truck... .....

YUP - on the one side, we have guys patting us on the head, telling us to "don't worry, the Government, EPA and fuel distributors know what they're doing and will look out for you" - and then you get the steady stream of related failures and damage...



Suuuure, I'll trust the oil companies to watch out for me, and protect my engine and fuel system - when HELL freezes over!