South Bend won't disingage

[SShafranko]

My friend installed a DD South Bend clutch on his 06 six months ago. He has a hard time getting it into gear from a standstill and reverse is nearly impossible. Two seperate shops came to the conclusion that the clutch is not disingaging do to a bad disc or grease instead of oil on the pilot bearing? It is going in to be looked at next monday. Any ideas on what to expect and has anyone had a similar issue?

 

[MMeier]

Kinda related... but thats how my 5600 acted when it got hot due to a faukty rebuild. Had to shut it off to go into gear. Does it do it all the time or just after it warms up?

 

[jelag]

I don't believe that oil or grease makes a difference on the pilot bearing... . as long as there is lubricant to prevent the input shaft from sticking to the flywheel... . Pilot bushing are manufactured with a lube in the material that's normally good for life... and a pilot bearing needs to be greased once upon installation... .



Any air that might be in the hydraulic system will prevent the travel needed from the slave cylinder to release the clutch... . as the clutch pedal pushes down, the air compresses in the line using master stroke without giving you slave stroke...



Is there a chance that you might be over traveling the linkage... where the linkage moves so far that it binds the disc's to the cover after their fully released... . to test for this, let the truck idle and slowly press the clutch pedal to the floor... . I'm guessing that I'd take 20 seconds to press the pedal to the floor... . and I'd note exactly when the lever let the transmission slip into gear... if in fact the transmission slips into gear say 1/3 of the way down you could be over stroking the system. .



When ever you have a modified system, its important that you do a good and proper installation... . hanging the transmission from the clutch disc's during installation of the transmission can and will damage the disc's... . once this happens they won't release... .



Remember that often the pedal will go to the floor... the linkage will move only about 5/8 - 3/4" during this time the pressure plate will lift only about . 050 - . 060" this slight amount means that for the clutch to fully release there has to be a . 015" gap between the flywheel and first disc... . first disc to center plate... etc... .



It doesn't take much damage to these disc's for them not to fully dis-engage...



If the flywheel was turned, not ground, than there is a chance that the face of the flywheel is not parallel to the surface of the crank... or if there was a bur on the flywheel grinder any flywheel that is out . 020" or more will not allow the clutch to release... see the paragraph above. .

 

[SRadke]

Has it done it since the original install? Have you been in contact with Peter at SBC?

 

[SShafranko]

Thank you for the information. It has not done it since the install. This is the first time it has shown any problem. The truck is not driven hard other than the occasional highway race. It is a daily driver and never been drag raced or abused, so i'm assuming it would be a problem with the install or the clutch itself. I will call Peter from SB and see what he has to offer. The shop who originally installed the clutch wanted $700. 00 to take it apart and look at it without any parts or labor for the parts.

 

[ENafziger]

What plate loading does he have? Reason I ask, is many people (including myself) installed 3600 and 3850 plate loadings which have finger type pressure plates that will not hold up to the repeated cycling of daily driving.

My 3850 broke one of the fingers at about 28k miles after being installed. Peter went above and beyond and sent me a 3250 (which incorporates a diaphragm style pressure plate meant for daily driving), and I couldn't be happier.

--Eric

 

[JCasper]

Are you sure the clutch hydraulics are working properly?



I've heard of them faililng. When I had my SB OFE put in I also put in their upgraded hydraulics.

 

[BigPapa]

I'd put money on the pilot bearing. I'd want to be there when it was pulled apart. Most pilot bearing failures, especially this soon after clutch install, are due to improper installation, and if it's the same shop that did the install they may not own up to it... ... ...



Scott

 

[SShafranko]

We are not bringing it to the same shop for the simple reason that if it is an install failure they will not own up to it. I'm not sure that the hydraulics are working properly, but they will be checked tomorrow. The mechanic who is taking the truck in tomorrow did some research on South Bend and claims that he found information stating that SB is having problems with their DD clutches i think. They say 1 out of 25 is failing if true probably more like 1 out of 5. Anyone know if there is any truth to this?

 

[jelag]

4-5 issues I read above need to be clarified. . Please remember that the clutch is part of a system for transmission of power from the engine to the rear wheels. .

1 - any clutch builder worth his salt wouldn't provide a clutch with a lever that won't handle the load... . we do a lot of building where we add to the plate load... and on some applications take them from 3600 lbs to 4400 lbs... we know the levers and what they can do... we won't build a clutch that will have levers that will fail...

In the same note... lever failure from release bearing failure, or the driver resting his foot on the pedal so that the bearing wears out and later wears out the levers is not lever failure... just like when you remove the diaphragm cover and the edges of the fingers are worn off... .

2 - JCasper is right... there are several vendors offering complete hydraulic replacements that do 2 things... . 1 - they have a larger slave and larger master to provide the ability to provide more pressure... . this upgrade can handle additional pressure plate loading... 2 - the vendors are also now offering complete systems that are full of fluid and pre-bled so that you don't have to spend an hour bleeding... we often find that some applications where the master cylinder is tilted it might take 45 min to an hour to bleed... some of these we have to pull from the firewall to get it done... .

We don't do installations... except our own fleet... . but end up fixing those of our customers who think its the clutch problem when its an installation problem...

3 - If the pilot bearing is loose... and allows the input shaft to drift off the center line, than a vibration will result as the disc is clamped up out of center line... this vibration and resulting "off center line" will destroy the front bearing in the transmission and later will damage the bearing between the input shaft and output shaft of the transmission. . As the pilot bearing starts to fail and it sticks... thus not allowing the input shaft to turn at a different speed than the engine, rough dis-engagement will result... Remember we're talking bearings... when you talk about a pilot bushing... they usually don't stick... they just get loose and allow the disc to be clamped up off the center line. .

4 - If the transmission is allowed to hang on the clamped disc during assembly without a transmission jack... the weight of the transmission hanging on the hub can damage the disc... and the disc will not release like it should. .

5 - if the flywheel surface is not parallel to the crankshaft clutch release problems will occur... We've seen as little as . 015" out of parallel result in no release... we have a competitor who insists that his turned flywheels are as good as a ground flywheel... please tell me how you set a flywheel up in a drum lathe or engine lathe and dial in the both the backside and front side, you can't... but you can have a ground fixture that allows you to grind the face of the flywheel parallel to the crank surface... and this can be tested in the truck with a dial indicator...

 

[SShafranko]

4-5 issues I read above need to be clarified. . Please remember that the clutch is part of a system for transmission of power from the engine to the rear wheels. .



1 - any clutch builder worth his salt wouldn't provide a clutch with a lever that won't handle the load... . we do a lot of building where we add to the plate load... and on some applications take them from 3600 lbs to 4400 lbs... we know the levers and what they can do... we won't build a clutch that will have levers that will fail...



In the same note... lever failure from release bearing failure, or the driver resting his foot on the pedal so that the bearing wears out and later wears out the levers is not lever failure... just like when you remove the diaphragm cover and the edges of the fingers are worn off... .



2 - JCasper is right... there are several vendors offering complete hydraulic replacements that do 2 things... . 1 - they have a larger slave and larger master to provide the ability to provide more pressure... . this upgrade can handle additional pressure plate loading... 2 - the vendors are also now offering complete systems that are full of fluid and pre-bled so that you don't have to spend an hour bleeding... we often find that some applications where the master cylinder is tilted it might take 45 min to an hour to bleed... some of these we have to pull from the firewall to get it done... .



We don't do installations... except our own fleet... . but end up fixing those of our customers who think its the clutch problem when its an installation problem...



3 - If the pilot bearing is loose... and allows the input shaft to drift off the center line, than a vibration will result as the disc is clamped up out of center line... this vibration and resulting "off center line" will destroy the front bearing in the transmission and later will damage the bearing between the input shaft and output shaft of the transmission. . As the pilot bearing starts to fail and it sticks... thus not allowing the input shaft to turn at a different speed than the engine, rough dis-engagement will result... Remember we're talking bearings... when you talk about a pilot bushing... they usually don't stick... they just get loose and allow the disc to be clamped up off the center line. .



4 - If the transmission is allowed to hang on the clamped disc during assembly without a transmission jack... the weight of the transmission hanging on the hub can damage the disc... and the disc will not release like it should. .



5 - if the flywheel surface is not parallel to the crankshaft clutch release problems will occur... We've seen as little as . 015" out of parallel result in no release... we have a competitor who insists that his turned flywheels are as good as a ground flywheel... please tell me how you set a flywheel up in a drum lathe or engine lathe and dial in the both the backside and front side, you can't... but you can have a ground fixture that allows you to grind the face of the flywheel parallel to the crank surface... and this can be tested in the truck with a dial indicator...

Thanks for the clarification. I am lost when it comes to these clutches.

The clutch is coming out tomorrow> I will post findings.

 

[SShafranko]

OK. The clutch was taken out and the problem was a defective pressure plate. A piece broke off of one of the four fingers on the pressure plate. In the prosess it wore out the clutch and the flywheel to the point that it does not make sence to reinstall. SB asked us to send the assembly in and they will rebuild the clutch and the flywheel and send it back along with a brand new pressure plate. They have been great and very cooperative at South Bend, it just hurts to have the truck down for two weeks do to a defect and wait to get back a rebuilt unit. Why can't they send a new one so that we can get the truck back on the road? Pete was not there today but we will ak him tomorrow i guess. Both the pilot and throwout bearing look like they have 200,000 miles on them and there is a lot of debris on and around the main shaft and the collar.

 

[DE Jeeper]

That's what mine looked like when the finger off the 3600 clutch I had broke. I wound up putting in a 3250 because it has a more traditional style pressure plate and is more reliable. It holds my power just fine even when towing.



Also, before this turns into a SB bashing thread they were first class in getting me the parts and covering the replacement, even sent it overnight to me. Not sure if they have a problem with the 3600 clutch, but the way I look at it, it is the price we pay for burning the candle bright. They put out an great product that holds a huge amount of power, but I guess reliability and longevity may be compramised.



Aaron

 

[SRadke]

Picture 2 is the flywheel. It has a brass/bronze (can't remember which) inlay. What you see is where the friction has been running on the brass surface of the flywheel.

-Scott

 

[SShafranko]

I don't intend to bash SB. They have been very cooperative so far as mentioned previously. As for longevity and reliability, if i am going to pay $2,000. 00 for a clutch it better last more than 8,400 miles or there will definitely be some bashing going on. This truck is babied except for the occasional highway race. If i can't stomp on it once in a while with a clutch like this one i will slip my stock clutch until i can afford a real one.

 

[SShafranko]

I have a question or two... .



1 - In picture 2 above, it seems there is a wear line that the pressure plate has worn into the ceramic friction... . is this because the ID of the mating plate is larger in diameter than the ID of the ceramic surface??



2 - in that picture is that ceramic friction riveted to an aluminum or steel flywheel...



Would you be kind enough to either email me or post to this thread a photo of each side of the mating surfaces... .



The pilot bearing and release bearing look normal for any clutch that might have more than 1000 miles on it... . once the surfaces start to wear the dirt is everywhere... . that's why those bearings need to be well greased and sealed...

These are the only pictures i have. The clutch will be shipped tomorrow. I will try to get more before it is sent out but i can't guarantee it.

 

[SShafranko]

Peter is shipping a new clutch out to us today so that we can get the truck on the road immediately. Awesome service!!!!! I will recomend and put this clutch in all my vehicles. Thanks for all replies and thank you Peter.

 

[ENafziger]

OK. The clutch was taken out and the problem was a defective pressure plate. A piece broke off of one of the four fingers on the pressure plate.

That's why I asked what plate loading you had.

Reason I ask, is many people (including myself) installed 3600 and 3850 plate loadings which have finger type pressure plates that will not hold up to the repeated cycling of daily driving.

My 3850 broke one of the fingers at about 28k miles after being installed. Peter went above and beyond and sent me a 3250 (which incorporates a diaphragm style pressure plate meant for daily driving), and I couldn't be happier.

Many people (including myself) read what they see on the internet and order a heavy duty (3600 or 3850) DD clutch because they want to do it once and be done with it. Problem is, (like me), I never called Peter to get his advice on the right application for my truck.

The lever-style pressure plates are NOT designed for daily driving. My 3850 didn't break because Southbend had design problems... it broke because I was using it for the wrong application! I've found others are quick to jump on the wagon of blaming SB for failures when the product was used outside its designed application. With clutches, it's not always the bigger is better mentality that works best... I found out the hard way.

I'm not posting this in a negative way, but rather hoping more people who are in the market for a clutch will see this and take our experiences into consideration before going through what we have.

Glad you're on track to getting it fixed... Peter is a stand-up fellow, and their products are second to none.

--Eric

 

[SShafranko]

That's why I asked what plate loading you had.







Many people (including myself) read what they see on the internet and order a heavy duty (3600 or 3850) DD clutch because they want to do it once and be done with it. Problem is, (like me), I never called Peter to get his advice on the right application for my truck.



The lever-style pressure plates are NOT designed for daily driving. My 3850 didn't break because Southbend had design problems... it broke because I was using it for the wrong application! I've found others are quick to jump on the wagon of blaming SB for failures when the product was used outside its designed application. With clutches, it's not always the bigger is better mentality that works best... I found out the hard way.



I'm not posting this in a negative way, but rather hoping more people who are in the market for a clutch will see this and take our experiences into consideration before going through what we have.



Glad you're on track to getting it fixed... Peter is a stand-up fellow, and their products are second to none.



--Eric

You are absolutely correct. Before this clutch was ordered SB was confronted as to what would be the best application for this truck.



Sorry i didn't get back to you but it was a 3250.



South Bend is awesome! Never really experienced service this good. The truck in question is actually my roommate's and that is the reason why it took me so long to anwser the questions. I was at work while he was dealing with the trans. shop.



We also got very lucky finding a great and honest transmission mechanic who came highly recommended by several people. He was employed by Level 10 a long time ago. The original clutch installer wante $700 to take the clutch out and look at it, and was not helpful at all with SB. Ron dealt directly with Peter at SB which was great.