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Spring Am, Kimber, or Para-Ord 1911A1?

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Kimber has been on my wish list for a few years now.



As far as concealed carry, you guys like the autos over revolvers?



I was considering one of those SP101 Rugers.
 
Sled Puller don't give up considering a Ruger SP 101. About 10 years ago I was building full race guns for competition. All autos so I knew my way around them. I love my Colt autos and revolvers with a passion but have been carrying a SP 101 for years.

Have the hammer spur removed, and all the sharp edges removed and you have a great little carry gun. I put the cylinder in the lathe and put a good chamfer on the sharp edges. If you can't do the job with five rounds, somethings wrong. One of these little guns got my wife out of a sticky situtation once, rounds fired, 0. This advise is not for the Navy Seals, FBI, or any law enforcement type situtations, just a regular fellow that drives a Ram.

M Barnett
 
If you are considering a revolver don't overlook some of the new Taurus's. I would like to get my hands on one of these:



http://www.taurususa.com/titanium/undercover.html



Only 13. 7 oz. That's half the weight of an sp101



Taurus as a company has come a long way. They are also one of the most solid pro 2nd manufacturers out there. When S&W was selling us out to Slick, they were giving out free memberships to the NRA.
 
Just noticed the thread here on guns. I have worked at a high end gun store/pistol range for the past 3 years part time and more recently full time. We are located in CT and are one of the largest gun stores in the north east. We are a full line stocking dealer for HK, Sig, Glock, Steyr, S&W and Colt (Whats left). We also carry just about every reputable manufacturer of firearms. We do NOT carry second rate companies like AMT, Astra, EAA, Intratec, etc. We are also a master dealer for Wilson Combat, Les Baer, Ed Brown and Kimber, SVI and Rock River and have guns from these manufactucturers in stock all the time. My personal expierience aside from working in this store presently as a range officer and the firearms sales manager also includes me being a certified Glock and HK armorer and the person responsible for the maintanence and repair of our ranges rental guns. I have been shooting pistols for 14 years and also have been trained in the military. I myself own several pistols, to name a few, Glock: 22, 27, 35, 20, 21C, Colt: Annaconda 4", M1991, HK: USP-C . 357, USP-Tac, Wilson Combat: KZ-45, Tactical Elite, CQB-C. Kimber: Ultra Shadow, Beretta: 96Vertec. Les Baer: Super tac, Thunder Ranch. I am not professing myself to be an expert. But i have had alot of hands on expierience in this field and being a pistol range officer on a range that sees close to 300 people a week and keeping watch on 32 different rental handguns, i can tell you about reliability, accuracy and what works in handguns.

My point of this post is to help shed light on this topic. Here are some things i can tell you.

The store i work out is located in Fairfield county CT which is an area with ALOT of money. We therefore are able to keep a huge inventory of firearms and sell alot of high end guns very often. We have 2 indoor ranges with a total of 14 points. One range is a 50 foot range, the other a 75 foot range. We have the SIG academey come to our range, Navy SEALs and have even had Jerry Miculek come shoot there. The store itself is huge, the building used to be a warehouse to give you an idea of size. CT is also a class 3 state so we stock a great deal of fully automatic and suppressed weapons too. We allow anyone who can safely handle a firearm to the chance to rent and different guns to try them out and find what you like. We dont allow reloads of anything but FMJ to be used in our guns. We use, PMC, UMC of American eagle ammo in all our range guns. They cleaned every 1-2 thousand rounds or sooner if needed.



Excluding "1911" type weapons, the most popular handguns we sell are SIG, HK and Glock. I consider these companies "The big 3". We sell more Glocks then anything due to them have the largest variety of models and they are also the least expensive of the three mentioned above. Beretta's come in 4th, there new 9000S and the VERTEC and big sellers right now. My take on them is this. First, HK, the most expensive of the three. There line is somewhat limeted in variety as far as size. . 9mm is available in 2 sizes along with the P7-M8 "Squeezecocker", . 40 is available in Full Size, Compact, The USP "Expert" and a new gun called the USP-LEM. . 357SIG is available compact only and . 45 in compact, fullsize, Tactical (Threaded barrel, Adj sights), Expert (Longer barrel and a few other upgrades) and lastly the Mark23. We have all of the above mentioned guns in our rental section and in 4 years the only problem i encoutered with one was a cracked slide in a . 357sig model which HK fixed for free. I also had a customer with a P7M8 with a trigger spring failure. Other then that, i have not heard or seen any problems with there guns. They are VERY expensive, in the $700-800 range for regular USP's all the way up to $2,100 for the Mk23. They are very accurate and there customer service is good although slow. Dissasembley is also the slowest of the big three. With the exception of the P7, they all have a rail for mouting lights, lasers, etc. The downside to them aside from price is they dont have a large aftermarket accesory selection. No internal laser is available, and external lasers that fit there rails are expensive. The flashllight/laser combo is around $1,200. Magazines are also pricey.

Sig is another fairly expensive line of guns with a somewhat limeted variety. They do make guns in . 9mm, . 380, . 40, . 45, . 357 SIG and . 38super. Unlike HK and Glock they use metal frames as opposed to polymer (With the excerption of the Sig Pro). They are accurate, easy to dissasemble but i can tell you, there reliablity is not the greatest. I have had to send several of our range guns out for factory repair with problems such as trigger springs failing, barrel lugs breaking, extractor problems etc. Sig has told me there guns should be rebuilt every 10k rounds. Not what i expect on a $700 gun. There finish is also notoriously poor in that it shows wear very quickly. An accesory rail is available on only a few models. Internal lasers are available for most models. Another thing that makes HK and Glock have an advantage over Sig is the fact they use polymer for there frames which helps absorb recoil as opposed to a metal frame, which sends the recoil into you.

Lastly, Glock. They are the least expensive of the big three and i consider them the best as far as price (Almost all of them are $529. 00), easy to maintain, accurate, RELIABLE and by far, they have the most accerories out for them. They are made in . 9mm, . 40, . 357sig, . 10mm and . 45. All calibers except . 10mm are available in at least 3 sizes, and two of those sizes are available ported. Another great thing about Glocks that HK and Sig cant do is the interchangable magazines. Full size mags fit compact models (They stick out the handle) which gives you a full size grip and LOTS of ammo. How great is it to carry a a full size Glock as your primary weapon and a compact as your backup, and they can use the same mags. There are TONS of acceories for them, Internal lasers are available for ALL models, lots of variety in flashlights and lasers at cheaper prices then available for HK. HI Cap mags are plentiful and cheaper then HI Cap Sig and HK mags. They are also the most reliable guns i have ever seen. We have a Glock 17 and 22 that have been on the range since 1994 and have NEVER been rebuilt (Just the recoil spring once). The Glock 17 has close to 40K rounds through it and it still shoots great. You can also strip the gun down to nothing with one drift punch. There finish is also the most durable. I have NEVER seen a Glock break. whether it be our own, or a customers. I personally dont like external hammers on anything but 1911's and revolvers. Its just one more thing to snag on clothing and jam.

As for other manufactures, S&W's semi auto's are ok, they can be tempermental with ammo feeding. Their performance center stuff is very nice. We do carry Taurus, but they are pretty bad in my opinion, we get alot of trade ins on them towards better guns. I would not bet my life on one. Ruger's are nice range guns, but again, not super relaiable.

As for "1911" style guns, Which are my favorite, and as i mentioned, we carry all the best manufacturers of them. Colt, the most popular based on name are nice, but there prices are getting out of hand and there quality is starting to get inconsistent. We have sent MANY out for repair. There Gold Cups are great. Springfield armory is a company i like, i own one of there "Loaded 1911" pistols and it shoots well and has held up great even after 15k rounds. There fit and finish is not the greatest, but for the $$, they are nice.

Kimber is by far the best of the "Factory" 1911's. Factory meaning mass produced, as opposed to custom 1911's like Wilson, Les Baer, etc. They have plenty of options in sizes, finish and materials and there customer service is great. I have been to there facility and it is very good. They are very accurate and i have never seen a major problem with one. Price is reasonable. We sell more of them then any other 1911 since they give the most options for the price and the quality is excellent

Para Ordinance is kind of a unique version of the 1911 in that they are double action and have there own style of frames. They are accurate, fairly relaible but i personally dont like the feel of them in my hand. I also have a range gun of theres that is a constant problem with jamming. I myself and more then happy to carry a 1911 "Cocked and locked" and therfore see no need to have an LDA. There is also a kit available now that will retrofit ANY 1911 with a pop back hammer so it can be carried hammer down.

As for custom 1911's. I personally like Wilsons. There customer service is better then anyones and there pistols are absolute works of art as far as finish. They are however VERY expensive, and have slow delivery times. We have had guns on order with them for as long as 14 months. They are super accurate and you get a ton of stuff when you buy one. There Armor tuff finish looks really nice, but does wear. They will refinish the gun if you want to keep it looking new.

Les Baer makes great pistols too, also extremely expensive. They are by far the TIGHTEST fitting pistols made. Some are nearly impossible to open when new. That is one of the reasons they are so accurate.

Ed Brown makes some beautiful pieces too. Yet again, off the scale expensive. We sold 4 "Kobra Karry" pistols this week for $2,420 each. Really nice, really accurate but i have to say, my Wilson Tactical Elite outshot all his guns i tried.

Once you go custom, you really cant buy a bad 1911. They are all great and all backed up by great customer service. Just go with what you like. But try different guns before you decide. Make the final desicion yourself, dont have tunel vision. I personally carry a Glock 27 or 35 as my primary wepon, or a Wilson KZ-45 or S&W j frame hammerless in my pocket. Depends what i am wearing.
 
Also, all TDR mebers are welcome to come and use the range. I will be able to give a TDR discount so you can save money and use it towards diesel fuel instead of ammo.
 
Are there any pulling tracks or drag strips near you, EMD?



You are not that far away, sounds like it could be a fun weekend at the range and gawking.



Since I started BOMBing, I have not shot 5 rounds thru my handguns. Been years. But there sure are fun to shoot!



Gene
 
here's my baby. was my grandfather's issue sidearm in WWII, it was nickle plated in '81 then placed back in it's leather holster by my grandpa, so it doesn't look the greatest, but it's all mine!





#ad
 
Will, you own a piece of history, doesen't matter what the exterior looks like... admire it and keep it close to your heart. Think of the places that weapon has been. Wish I had a weapon like that in my collection.



Way off the topic but reminds me of a Nazi dagger I just had the chance to handle. It was removed by court order after a temporary restraining order was issued. It had the Nazi Swastika at the blades edge and it appeared to be the original sheath. According the owner, it was taken off a Nazi officer during the war by his grandfather. It was a strange feeling to hold the dagger and imagine where it had been.



Scott W.
 
Will, thats a 1911, the one before the A1. Notice the short trigger, short grip safety spur, short thumb safety, lanyard loop and the trigger gaurd hasn't been reliefed. Appears the hammer has been replaced with an A1.

M Barnett
 
Scott - also off topic here's a pic of the Luger that my grandfather brought back from the war that I inherited from him, it's my most cherished posession:



#ad




It's a completely numbers matching gun with the original holster, spare mag, and take down tool. When I was a kid he would remove the firing pin and let me play with it. When I think back to that now it's staggering - if that happened today a kid would be shot! It was he that got me interested in guns. Every year I take it out and shoot it on his birthday and on veterans day - always an emotional event for me, it's the way I honor him.



-Steve
 
Good Info - Good topic I picked

Folks,

thanks for all the info especially EMD for that long list of experience you have detailed. I do have my sites set on a 1911 model and am narrowing my search down between the Kimber and the Springfield. The Glocks (or Tupperware guns as they are refered to at my club) are very lite and since I'm looking a very small gun, want to reduce the recoil as much as possible, plus I am partial to a stainless steel weapon.



I can't spend a super amount of money so I hope that my gunsmith can come back with a good price on the Kimber ultra compact.



Keep the comments comming, seems like a good topic that folks like to talk about.



Another discussion topic we could add to this is the virtues of carrying on the hip (or waist ban) or under the arm. I carry on my hip, but as the summer months come close the cloths come off and my P90 is just too much to hide (don't need a garnishing charge when reaching for stuff on the top shelf at the supermarket).



What your thoughts?
 
Re: Good Info - Good topic I picked

Originally posted by FATCAT

Folks,

thanks for all the info especially EMD for that long list of experience you have detailed. I do have my sites set on a 1911 model and am narrowing my search down between the Kimber and the Springfield. The Glocks (or Tupperware guns as they are refered to at my club) are very lite and since I'm looking a very small gun, want to reduce the recoil as much as possible, plus I am partial to a stainless steel weapon.



I can't spend a super amount of money so I hope that my gunsmith can come back with a good price on the Kimber ultra compact.



Keep the comments comming, seems like a good topic that folks like to talk about.



Another discussion topic we could add to this is the virtues of carrying on the hip (or waist ban) or under the arm. I carry on my hip, but as the summer months come close the cloths come off and my P90 is just too much to hide (don't need a garnishing charge when reaching for stuff on the top shelf at the supermarket).



What your thoughts?



If you cant get the Kimber for what you want, you wont regret getting the Steyr. (or two:D ) Guess by now you know, I really like these! :D

I've carried a Beretta 92 in a Milt Sparks Executive IWB holster. This isnt a small pistol!! You wont know you have it until you go to get into the passenger side of a car.

Holsters are more of a personal taste. One size dont fit all, as far as comfort. If you arent comfortable, you wont wear it.

I dont know who makes leather for the Steyr yet. I suppose something made for a Sig might work, as long as it's not precisely boned.

HTH

Eric



PS I dont know if I mentioned this, but I really like my Steyr. :D;)
 
I own a small gunshop and sell all the guns you mentioned. I have many many pistols in my personal arsonal and shot many rounds through these. The ParaOrd is finicky about its ammo, is generally plagued by jams, and takes many rounds to break it in. Any problems, Para ord will not "NOT" stand behind their product. Maybe they stand too far behind it, but they will not make problems right. I have a quote from the Para Ord people in e-mail that if their CCW 45 will shoot military ammo (ammo of SAAMI specs) it does what it is made to do, whether or not it feeds commercial ammo. No one uses military ball for self defence.

The Kimber is a good gun but I think the Sig 229 is by far the best of the group if you could swing the extra cash for it. Their black stainless is second to none in looks and there is no poor worksmanship to be found. Again my 2cents worth.

Steve H.
 
One more thing, ported or not for barrel?

For a barrel of 3 - 3 1/2" firing a . 45 ACP, what about ported barrels? Pros/Cons. I don't own anything with a ported barrel and am wondering what concerns (if any) I should have about these types of barrels.
 
Fatcat, here's my 2 cents:



1) For . 45 acp I don't really think it is needed, recoil is not that bad. Ported for . 357, . 44 mag, now that might make sense. However, I wouldn't choose those calibers for defense anyhow for one reason: Muzzle flash. Stumble out of bed, there's a BG coming at you in a dark hallway... . or at night anywhere. Boom! That's about the only chance you'll get at an accurate shot because you will be blinded for a while after that. Also those rounds have a tendency to over penetrate, through your family's bedroom walls, to the neighbors house, etc.



2) I also don't like ported barrels on defense guns for the potential damage they can do to you. Say something goes wrong and you find yourself wrestling around on the ground with the BG and you are forced to discharge the gun with the barrel pressed flat up a against your belly or somewhere else. The gasses coming out of those ports will tear you a big one. :eek: and only that if you are lucky.



The only place a ported barrel makes sense on a defensive gun is if you are shooting with arms extended at multiple targets and you are worried about rapid target aquisition. The only thing is that most self defense scenarios don't happen that way... .



Hopefully that helps some. I guess my response strayed away a little bit from your question but it does address some defense scenarios that people don't always think about.





Ken
 
No Porting

Big no no on a personal defense weapon- under stress the key is to keep it simple- the port gets near the hand and the focused gases will get you before the bad guy- I think four inches is the shortest I would go-a "Commander" sized . 45 which Kimber excels in- the melted CDP series is excellent- too short- loss of velocity and muzzle flash that will blind you to go with your gas amputated finger- As for carry- a matter of personal preference and the world is full of great product in the last few years as CCW has boomed- The kydex type " combat tupperware" as we call it from Blade Tech, Uncle MIkes and others are light, rigid, and forgiving of the elements- No shoulder carry- strong side or cross draw- a one or two mag pouch is also available as a matched set with the holster- will carry under a loose t shirt or a light vest- this will also fit in a fanny pack type rig if you need to. You cannot go wrong with Kimber- have you checked the used market- they are all over and you will save big$$$$
 
Bellyband rig

Bianchi makes (made) a rig called the belly band. I've had mine for over 10 years now, guessing that they are still made in one fashion or another. It's a real simple design, looks very similar to a money belt, but has openings for a weapon, speed strips or magazines and a set of cuffs. I have never carried anything but a firearm in the rig, as that's enough and I choose to carry my spare reload in my weak hand pocket. Regardless, you drop your trousers or shorts, strap on the rig, pull up your trousers/shorts over the rig/weapon and then either tuck in your shirt, over the rig, or leave the shirt untucked. It takes awhile to get used to, as does any concealment holster, but it will allow you to carry in a strong side waistband position during the summer months. I carried a 4" S+W 629 in this manner for one summer, so a smaller auto would be no problem. My current off-duty weapon is the S+W 686 plus, a 7 shot 2 1/2" barreled . 357 . I use the belly band holster extensively during the summer months with this weapon, have been for about 4 years now. Again, it takes some getting used to, but it's a good choice for concealment in the summer months.



I went through the ankle holster craze when I first started carrying. There is nothing worse than wearing long pants when it's 90F plus, just so that you can carry.



They also make several designs of a mesh T-shirt with a holster sewn in, under the arm pit. I tried two different designs and can tell you, they aren't suitable for anything that could be considered a fighting weapon.



Hope this helps, I'll see if I can find a link to the belly band holster, so that you can see it.



Scott W.
 
Belly band holsters are still around, we stock them. Bianchi, Desantis and others. They are really nice, but if you have a large gut they are like wearing a girdle i have been told. I just use a hip holster with a paddle.
 
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