Starter won`t Disengage

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After key is switched from the START position to the RUN position, the STARTER STILL RUNS. Cycling the key back and forth will not help. Truck will not shut down! Luckily it has not gone on for longer than about 20 seconds.

Apparently the pinion gear on the solenoid is retracting from the ring gear on the flywheel. I do not hear "grinding". Pretty sure just the starter motor is hanging up.

I rebuilt the starter solenoid (full rebuild kit) 6 months ago with Keiths` Diesel Electric service. From the TDR article. Also tested the starter relay in the PDC. Checked out ok. Tried to get it to hang up, couldn`t, replaced it anyway. Starter wiring is clean & tight.

It used to do this once every 20 or 30 starts. After I rebulit the solenoid and replaced the relay it didn`t happen again until this morning.

It seems to happen more on wet & Humid days.

I don`t think I`m the first guy to have this trouble. I hate to think of what can happen if the starter Won`t shut down, and I can`t disconnect the batteries.

Could it be the ignition switch acting up?

Any help would be appreciated. #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT,4X4,5 Speed,3. 54 LSD... . Still looks brand new... .



[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-20-2000). ]

 

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Originally posted by HEMI®Dart:
< I hate to think of what can happen if the starter Won`t shut down, and I can`t disconnect the batteries. >

I can tell you what happens on a 79 LTD II police car- the starter blows off!!! Ask me how I know this!!!

<Could it be the ignition switch acting up?>

Could be. Have you tried pulling the starter relay after the engine is running? This might give you an idea as to whether it's the switch, relay, or the starter motor itself. Hope this helps.


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Bill Lins Wharton, TX 98 2500 QC SLT,12 (the CORRECT # of)valves,NV4500,3. 54 LSD,Manik grille guard,K&N filter,Amsoil everywhere, Reading aluminum utility body and bumper,Optima yellow tops- silencer ring, cat,& muffler all stolen,
waiting for PsyScotty air

 

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It sounds like your relay is grounding out (something is anyway) that is keeping the current going across the starter circuit even without the switch on. For example, on a gas motor, a shorting ignition coil will do the same thing since the starter relay sends higher voltage straight through to the coil when starting. This completes the circuit without the key. Your relay coil must be bad. Humidity will help it short.

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99 2500 QC, LWB, 5spd, 3. 54 limited slip, Intense Blue, 275HP Injectors
Tow Lite trailer
96 KTM 360 EXC
99 Durango 4x4 360cid

 

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Thanks for the tips so far Guys. If it happens again, I will pop the hood and pull the starter relay from the PDC. Its only 6 months old though.

I also will have a wrench to remove the battery terminal... . just in case #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT,4X4,5 Speed,3. 54 LSD... . Still looks brand new... .

 

[Archive]

This same problem happened to me at about 90K miles. The engine was actually spinning the helpless starter until after 30 seconds or so it all shut down. I took the starter in for a diagnostic check and found that it was shot. Bought a new one from a national parts chain that had a lifetime warranty for about $140; dealer wanted $350. Remove/re-install is pretty quick & easy; just a few mounting bolts and the electical connections. You may have received a less-than-perfect rebuild, but you probably should go ahead and change out now.

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95 2500, clubcab, 2wd, longbed, a/t, 3. 54, 123K miles, "all the usual refinements"

 

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I didn`t even think of that fortunate1. The starter motor may not be running. The pinion gear might not be retracting, and the starter is spinning from the flywheel ring gear.
If it happens again, I will get under the truck and give the starter soleniod a tap or two w/ a hammer.

It Still doesn`t address why the truck could not be shut down though. Unless if when the pinion gear is engaged into the flywheel ring gear, and hangs up. The starter and Ignition switch functions are being overriden and are non functional when the system thinks its still in the START mode?


Bill R
94 2500 SLT,4X4,5 Speed,3. 54 LSD... . Still looks brand new... .




[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-21-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

One of my students 360 gas truck did this same thing the starter was full of mudd and the silinoid connection welded together keep the starter engaged. He jumps out of the truck with the keys in his hand and the engine running as well as the starter. It seems that the starter was powering up the coil and fuel pump curcuits. Looking at the wiring on out diesels the shut down relay would also be powered up if this hppened to the starter. I would suggest you pull the starter and check the disc for signs of it being welded top the contacts.

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Dee'sel
97 2500 Club 4X4 3. 54 LSD 5 speed, K&N Air filter RE0880, Waiting for Psychotty,
TST #11 half way forward, #12 for winter, AFC spring kit,
TST EGT gauge & TST 0-60 boost gauge in A Pillar
Silencer Ring removed, Cat-be-gone, 4" exhaust from down pipe,
Dynomax 4" bullet, Crome 4" turn down, AmsOil 80W-90 in Trans,
Lund WInter front, Leer Cab Level Shell, 235/85R16 Goodyears
NRA/USPSA member and proud of it

 

[Archive]

I had a Fraud product once where the solenoid points welded together, starter wouldn't stop.
I haven't looked at the schematics on this, but I kind of agree with Dee. The fuel solenoid and the starter are tied together. Only I'd suspect a bad ignition switch. But that's just off the top of my head, and not having put any study into the starter wiring itself. But what Dee said could be it also.
Good luck.

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"Roadrunner"-96 4X4 club cab-12v-auto-3. 54 gears-Amsoil bypass filter - all Amsoil fluids-trans filter-britebox-shelfit-DeeZee boards-Rhino liner-Rancho 5 speed shocks-Hellwig rear antisway & overload springs-Warn 12000 lb. winch-dual redtop optimas-combo gauge and trans. temp gauge in pillar mount-255/85R16 Kelly MSR tires-custom pinstriping- Walker muffler-Cummins mudflaps

[This message has been edited by Josparkz (edited 05-22-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

If your relay points are welding shut or burning badly, something is drawing too much current across them. This could be a bad starter motor also, and if the fuel pump motor runs off the relay connection, it could be going bad also. Try to check these. I went through several relays and a few starters before I found out I had an ignition coil shorting out. I got pretty fast at disconnecting the battery ground cable. If it is an electrical short, the starter will usually not run full speed when this is happening since so much current is being drained off by the short.

 

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Yes if the solenoid has been welding the starter is either worn out or binding internally.

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Dee'sel
97 2500 Club 4X4 3. 54 LSD 5 speed, K&N Air filter RE0880, Waiting for Psychotty,
TST #11 half way forward, #12 for winter, AFC spring kit,
TST EGT gauge & TST 0-60 boost gauge in A Pillar
Silencer Ring removed, Cat-be-gone, 4" exhaust from down pipe,
Dynomax 4" bullet, Crome 4" turn down, AmsOil 80W-90 in Trans,
Lund WInter front, Leer Cab Level Shell, 235/85R16 Goodyears
NRA/USPSA member and proud of it

[This message has been edited by drawson (edited 05-22-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Hum-mmmmmmmmmmmmm
you are not the first owner this has ever had this happen to. But dont rush out and buy a new starter and or solenoid. .
Send me half that money .
Some times this will happen with a fairly new unit. (solenoid)
If this ever happens again. jump out and in your handy tool box dig out your big hammer and slid under the truck and give it a good blow - if you are tired maybe two.
They claim the cause is of low voltage ??
check all your connections. ie remove and clean post and cable and grab the one at the starter and try to move it.
What is happening is when the contacts (washer's) in the solenoid are sucked together there is an arc and they are fused together--ie-hammer blow release's and in most case's never happen again.

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96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.

 

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Had the same thing happing with my backhoe, new batteries were the cure. If the problem hasn't already been solved, I'd take tdrmbramr's advice and check all electrical connections.

 

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Update,

I haven`t had any problems with the starter hanging up since last saturday. Have 2 Red Top Optima batteries. About 9 months old. All connections are clean and tight. (starter & battery). Rebuilt the solenoid 6 months ago,(full rebuild) kit from Kieth`s Diesel electric service.

I have a Hammer ready to wack the selonoid if it happens again.

Interesting observation, The morning the starter hung up, I was in a hurry. Cycled the ignition key from OFF to CRANK in a split second. This is how I used to start it when the starter was first acting up before I rebuilt the seloniod. During the winter I wait for the grid hearter to finish its cycle. Only when the engine is warm is when I went from OFF to CRANK[ignition switch] in a millisecond.

Now I go from OFF to RUN... wait a sec (hear a faint click in engine compartment) then to CRANK. Never any hang up problems when started this way.

I`m thinking the fuel shutdown solenoid does not go from the SHUTDOWN position to the RUN position instantaneously. It may take a second for the fuel shutdown solenoid to retract and pull the fuel pump lever to the RUN position.

I`m wondering if the one motion, OFF to CRANK, completed in a split second is partly to blame?


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT,4X4,5 Speed,3. 54 LSD... . Still looks brand new... .



[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 05-27-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

Originally posted by HEMI®Dart:
... I`m wondering if the one motion, OFF to CRANK, completed in a split second is partly to blame?

If low voltage is a recognized problem, I could see this happening if the heaters are engaged. You might want to ensure that your intake heater relays are working correctly; they *might* not be turning off as fast as they should, and drawing 110 amps, the heaters could be dropping the voltage enough to cause the problem. One of my relays recently failed in the 'on' position, thus draining the batteries in 40 minutes, melting the manifold-to-AFC hose, and melting the nice plastic terminal caps on the manifold.

Fest3er

 

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Hemidart; I had the same problem with my truck. I would try to start it and it would not crank until the third or fourth try. Turns out my batteries were low resulting in burned contacts in the solinoid. (I should have fixed this right away but I was too "busy")Anyway,the last time this happened the starter stuck on... . with the engine running!,I ran into the house to grab a wrench and unhook the battery cable. After disconnecting the second battery I was happy to see the engine still running... NOT! To make a long post short, the fuel shut off solinoid is powered up through the starter(I burned out the "pull" stage of the fuel shut off solinoid during this)Moral;keep your batteries fresh and change your contacts at the first sign of trouble.

 

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Fest3er,

I would only quickly cycle the ignition switch from OFF to CRANK in hot weather and engine at operating temp. Never in temps that would require the pre-heater to cycle first. Even when the starter is hung up, the gauges are functional. I didn`t see the draw on the voltmeter gauge which happens when the pre-heater is on.

Note: During the winter months when truck is driven and warmed up to normal operating temp, then shut down and restarted within minutes, the pre-heater will cycle. It seems the cold air going thru the intake manifold has cooled it enough where the intake manifold sensor is reading below 59 degrees. If you put your hand on it you will see its stone cold. Just thought I would pass this on. Its normal. I do wait for it to finish cycling during this circumstance too.

Thanks for all the tips guys. It hasn`t done it in a week. May rebuild the starter seloniod AGAIN if problems start. I will check the voltage of the 6 month old red top Optima batteries too.


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT,4X4,5 Speed,3. 54 LSD... . Still looks brand new... .

 

[Archive]

The last time the starter hung up was in June.

It did it again today, this time I couldn`t get it to shut down!

This is what I tried. (keys out of the ignition switch, on the seat now. ) Trying to remain calm #ad


Pulled starter relay out of the Power distribution Center under the hood. Does nothing.

Disconnected connector from the fuel shutdown solenoid. Engine shuts down, starter still crankin. (didn`t think it would shut down starter but tried anyhow)

Ran into work to get 1/2" wrench to dissconnect batteries. 30 seconds later batteries disconnected. ( I was lucky to have tools available)

Got a hammer. Gave the starter & solenoid a few light wacks. Starter is HOT #ad
Momentarily apply juice to starter again. Still hung up.

Disconnected solenod wire from starter. Applied juice. Still hung up.

Didn`t have access to an voltmeter. So I pulled the starter. (Note: the best tool I have found to remove the 3 bolts to the starter is a long 12 point 10MM boxed end wrench. Forget a rachet. Get the bolts from under the truck. Under 5 mins time to drop starter)

It didn`t surprise me what I found. The pinion gear (bendix) was in the out position. Engaged to the engine ring gear.
I touched the pinion (bendix) and it snapped in to the retracted position. Like it should have done when the key was cycled from the start to run position.

Tested it by grounding the body of the starter to the bellhousing, and having a helper turn the ignition key. It works perfect again. Popped the starter back in and hooked up the cables and I was off.

I have started the truck 6 times since I got home from work. No problems.

Keep in mind I rebuilt the starter solenoid about a year and a half ago. (diesel electric service Kit from the TDR) this was the full kit ,contacts, plunger, new springs, ect.

I suppose I could dissassemble the starter & solenoid to see whats wrong, but I don`t have the time or ambition.

$233 bananas for a rebuild starter from Advanced Auto. Much better than $600 for new starter from D/C. Will install tomorrow.

Sorry bout the rambling & overly detailed service procedures. This will help guys that are new to this stuff. #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT 4x4 5 Speed, 3. 54 LS, JRE 4" exhaust, Autometer Pyro, Boost & Water temp gauges, Bosch 215 HP injectors, Timing @ 14. 7 º, JRE Stage III #4 plate 270/675, AFC spring kit, Scotty Air, Bully Dog Propane Injection, Roadmaster Active Suspension, Optima Red Tops, Geno`s Exhaust Blanket,Espar Heater (won it!), Synthetic lubes throughout.

[This message has been edited by HEMI®Dart (edited 09-25-2000). ]

 

[Archive]

I think i have been having the same problem when the engine turns over every once in a while it sounds the starter stays engaged for a few seconds ( it sounds like a spinning /whining sound) then it goes away it seems to only happen every once in a while have 25k on truck hope starter isnt acting up could it be trans noise in park???

 

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Bill,was the reason you rebuilt the starter a year and a half ago because it wasn't disengageing?Reason I ask is because some friends who are building a gyrocopter with a Subaru engine had a similar problem,it ended up being a defective flywheel ring gear. Ever seen what happens to a starter motor when the engine is turning 5000 rpm with the starter engaged?They figured the little starter motor was turning in excess of 100,000 rpm when it exploded. Hope your problem is just the Bendex,they have a way of failing but appear to be fine when you take them off the engine. Good luck

 

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Illflem,

I did rebuild the solenoid because it would hang up once in a while. It was ok for about a year.

I just appears the starter pinion gear is not retracting when the key is cycled from START to RUN. The teeth on the bendix gear and flywheel ring gear look ok.

I now have a rebuilt starter on my front seat, and the starter has not hung up in 15 starts since yesterday. #ad


I`m still gonna change the starter.

Franticlly trying to yank battery cables off before the starter cable insulation melts and exposes a cherry red cable beneath is no fun. It will be worse in 0 degree weather. #ad


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Bill R
94 2500 SLT 4x4 5 Speed, 3. 54 LS, JRE 4" exhaust, Autometer Pyro, Boost & Water temp gauges, Bosch 215 HP injectors, Timing @ 14. 7 º, JRE Stage III #4 plate 270/675, AFC spring kit, Scotty Air, Bully Dog Propane Injection, Roadmaster Active Suspension, Optima Red Tops, Geno`s Exhaust Blanket,Espar Heater (won it!), Synthetic lubes throughout.