Starting Home build

[BIGNASTY]

We are getting ready to start a NEW HOME build for our Son's family. He was concerned with a wood stove for heat with a young one running around don't want to get him hurt. We have been looking into whole house woodstoves that go in the basement for heating his home and running heat ducts like any conventional home heating system. This way the hazard would be out of reach of the Grandson. I told him about the kind that are outside and would not only heat his house with radiant floor heating but would also be a source of hot water within the home. He didn't want to run OUTSIDE to load it up with wood in the middle of winter WHAT A BIG SISSY LA LA We have raised must be from his Moms side of the family ours would go out and dig up cow chips in mid-winter to burn them as a heat source. WHATS A DAD TO DO :-laf



Any Thoughts on this would be appreciated



BIG

 

[JR]

BIG, the outdoor units are the way to go IMO. I don't heat with wood personally, (have free gas ) but know SEVERAL people that do. Wood heat is big around these parts and the out door units are very popular. I have a friend who heats a big old drafty farm house, even on the coldest of days he can load that sucker up and it will run 14-16 houRs without needing tended to. On average days he only needs to tend to it once a day. He can feed 30" logs to that monster, once you get a flame going they are very self sufficient. I think they're much easier than in home units, less maintenance, and a lot less work carrying firewood inside everyday. The heat is much more even throughout the house too, not 110* in one corner of the house and 60 at the other end.

 

[jgillott]

If he wants to go with an indoor unit and your son is considering hot water heat, I highly recommend the Tarm indoor boiler. http://www.woodboilers.com/

If he wants forced air, Yukon-Eagle makes a great unit. http://www.yukon-eagle.com/

Both of those companies offer dual fuel options such as oil/wood or electric/wood if that is a factor.

Many of my neighbors have the outdoor boilers and like them alot. Not that it is a factor for you, but they do tend to smoke a lot compaired to the indoor units. I haven't purchased one because I too don't like to drag my middle aged fat self out of the house in the cold to feed the thing

 

[BIGNASTY]

Thanks for your thoughts on this. My Son and his wife are coming over today I have some people that have both inside and outside heaters so we can take a look at both in practical use. I don't blame him for not wanting to go out in the cold, but if it's just going to be 1 time a day well tough it out cowboy!! :-laf I kind of like the thought of the outside myself, but with the wife getting the wood cook stove we don't even use the pellet stoves we have unless it gets real cold.

 

[mwilson]

Oh Boy, this is a fun subject... ...



We have a lot of the outdoor boilers up here, let me spew forth about them. .



The Town Of Lincoln had to enact an ordinance in regards to chimney / stove pipe length on outdoor wood fired boilers as people were smoking out the local schools and neighbors with a smoke / fog combo about 4' off the ground while using only one chunk of pipe. It was nasty. So get the pipe up in the air a ways.

You can burn green wood, a chimney fire is no big deal. They will burn it, the creosote will be running out of the chimney in black, gooey layers.

They burn a LOT more wood than a standard wood fired boiler or wood stove. The forced draft really consumes wood when you have a zone calling for heat. My BIL installed one two years ago and he is nothing more than a slave to that wood eating pig. Went from 5 cord to 10+ cords per year. He scrounges for wood all of the time, it is ridiculous.

The mess stays outside. That part is great. The really organized folk build an enclosure for the furnace and wood supply so that everything isn't all wet and snowy everytime that you go out to fill it.

One really big factor with wood (at least the hardwood that we use) is getting a year ahead with your wood supply. Green wood is not an effecient burn and the creosote drooling out of everything is an indication of wasted BTU's, just like Diesel fuel running out of a tailpipe. Plus the risk of a chimney fire with green wood is almost certain. I had one years ago and thought we were going to lose the house before the FD got it out. They were an hour getting it stopped. In my case it ruined the chimney and I had to replace it that summer. Plus the mess because they finally dropped a chimney bomb down it, my cellar looked like the cab of a truck where a fire extingusher had gone off by accident.



With an outdoor boiler you won't get that same feeling of warmth that you do with a big wood stove in the house. There is nothing that feels any better that getting close to that stove when you are chilled to the bone. Also have several racks around ours for drying wet outerwear and boots.



As far as kids and wood stoves go, we train the kids just like we were trained. Some may think us rough but kids need to learn. I'm not going to fence everything in the GD house off.

My wife and I have been around wood heat all of our lives, nothing was guarded or gated off, it you touch something hot it burns. That is a simple fact and if you protect everything in the house the kid will get burned later in life somewhere else because they have no experience with such a thing. The theory applies to many other parts of life if a child is not taught.

So neither of my children are packing any scar tissue, as a matter of fact neither are the grandkids. My woodstove and propane heaters are not enclosed.



We protect them while they are little of course, when they are big enough to walk and have the freedom of the first floor we light whatever is there for heat generating appliances and feel the outside until the surface is just barely uncomfortably warm. Walk them over to it, tell them it is hot. hold their hand on it just long enough for them to pull it back. Repeat the word hot. Do it again. You only have to do that about twice, it does not hurt them but teaches them. From there when they get near it you repeat the word hot and point at the stove. They look at the stove, look at their hand and veer off. Jump back on the Fisher Price whatever and go about their business. That also requires that one is paying attention to what the kids are doing, going into a store lately that does appear to be a lost art with some of these parents.



Probably child services is on their way right now.



Another thought is the outdoor boiler will be overkill in the spring and fall, it's 50 degrees out and you are still jamming wood in it. I prefer several heat sources for different scenarios.

As I've mentioned before this is what we do... ... .



Oil fired boiler with hot water baseboard, Regency non-catalyst wood stove in the basement, Vermont Castings propane fireplace in the dining room and a small Rinnai propane wall mount heater in the den.

The boiler runs year round, used for domestic hot water only during the summer months. I don't shut the boiler off, too hard on them when they sit cold. Things start to leak, hard on the seals.

Wood stove used up until about mid-May, then it will set until September. Have chimney cleaned once a year, but there is very little material in it due to the dry wood and super nice wood stove.

Use the propane appliances when it is chilly (like when the wind is screaming off of the lake and it is -20 below) for evening comfort. Also great for rainy summer days when a wood fire would be too much heat.



So after all that whatever they decide they should factor in something for trustworthy heat that will run unattended for a back-up. That way you aren't calling the neighbors to see if they will fill your boiler mid-winter because Aunt Sally took sick and you have to be gone for a few days.



My energy cost is as follows...



#2 Fuel Oil . Just bought next years, 450 gallons. $1610. 55 This is been the case for the last 3 years. That is heat and hot water.



Hardwood . 5 cords, split, delivered and piled (The fort)... . $925. 00



Propane . Should be around $200. 00. This is for the two propane heating units plus the gas range in the kitchen.



That's not bad in my opinion, almost 3,000 sq. ft. right on the lake in Northern Maine. And we are comfortable in the winter.



Enough carrying on for now, just figured I would toss out some real figures and random thoughts.



Sorry for the long post, but they are making a big decision that will be with them for a long time. The more info, the better.



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

Hard to believe that I forgot something in the rambling post above, but I did. .



My brother is a code enforcement official in a coastal town here in the state. We have many discussions regarding the pros and cons of radiant in-floor heat. The recovery time is very loooong if your house cools down, 3 kids are running in and out fanning doors, etc.

So the latest installations by very experienced contractors add a few strips of hot water baseboard on their own thermostat and zone so that you can add a burst of heat to bring things back up to a comfortable temperature. Then let the radiant heat take over. That is working out very well for all that choose to do the in-floor heat.



Something to consider.



Mike.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Just took a look at our Propane bill from the last fill, was 265 gal at a cost of $2. 25 per and that lasted us for years as we only used it to cook and heat water. Now that Penny has a wood cookstove (with aux propane burners) we use it to heat sides for dinner and BBQ outside its to hot in the house to use the wood stove ALL THE TIME, and heat a tankless water heater it should last even longer. But the pellet/wood stoves take either or, we have to add to the price with a stock tank of sweat equity for the cutting, splitting, stacking of the wood. The wood is free to us it comes off our place.

 

[CBari]

I have wondered if you can get one of the outside wood boilers to burn wood pellets where you could set it up on an auger system for filling it. I personally use a geothermal unit run off a deep well. It is has been very efficient for us. The only down fall is it isn't an instant hot source you can back up to like a wood stove when you come in from the cold.

 

[mwilson]

I have wondered if you can get one of the outside wood boilers to burn wood pellets where you could set it up on an auger system for filling it. I personally use a geothermal unit run off a deep well. It is has been very efficient for us. The only down fall is it isn't an instant hot source you can back up to like a wood stove when you come in from the cold.

Yes, I saw several on display that worked that way at the Fryeburg Fair last fall. Had a mini-silo with an an auger in the bottom to deliver pellets to the boiler. I don't know what would happen given the moisture and frost that would build up in the storage area. Can't remember if they had a vibrating device on the silo to knock the pellets free or not.

One would need some kind of bulk pellet delivery available in your area, they are starting to rig up trucks for that purpose in Maine.

Had been all bagged pellets before now.



Mike.

 

[Jim W]

Oh Boy, this is a fun subject... ...


My energy cost is as follows...

#2 Fuel Oil . Just bought next years, 450 gallons. $1610. 55 This is been the case for the last 3 years. That is heat and hot water.

Hardwood . 5 cords, split, delivered and piled (The fort)... . $925. 00

Propane . Should be around $200. 00. This is for the two propane heating units plus the gas range in the kitchen.

That's not bad in my opinion, almost 3,000 sq. ft. right on the lake in Northern Maine. And we are comfortable in the winter.

Enough carrying on for now, just figured I would toss out some real figures and random thoughts.

Sorry for the long post, but they are making a big decision that will be with them for a long time. The more info, the better.

Mike.

Mike, MY god does it cost you to live in Maine.
My force air furnace- gas, gas stove and a gas fire place logs is only $720 a year for natural gas and then the electrical bill is $480 a year this includes the AC and my wood shop tools. Home is 2,000 sq. ft. and a 1,500 sq. ft. basement which is heated and cooled also. I guess I will stay in the Broke state of IL.

Jim W.

 

[mwilson]

Here's one, about four pages down in this brochure it shows the optional hoppers.



http://www.maximheat.com/downloads/MaximFlyer.pdf



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

Mike, MY god does it cost you to live in Maine.

My force air furnace- gas, gas stove and a gas fire place logs is only $720 a year for natural gas and then the electrical bill is $480 a year this includes the AC and my wood shop tools. Home is 2,000 sq. ft. and a 1,500 sq. ft. basement which is heated and cooled also. I guess I will stay in the Broke state of IL.



Jim W.

"Maine, the way life should be. "



It comes with a high price. My light bill is $120. 00 per month for two people living almost in the dark. A common light bill for a family of four with an electric hot water heater can easily be $250. 00 per month. Meanwhile we continue to rip out perfectly good dams so the Atlantic Salmon can get 2 miles further up the river... ..... but the Salmon don't seem all that interested.....

Meanwhile Quebec dams up anything that they can up for hydro power (and building fish ladders that work) reaping huge profits selling the power stateside. . makes perfect sense.



We'll just build a couple more state funded windmills, that ought'a even it up.....



Mike.

 

[Wayne M.]

Fish ladder? Mike, sounds like NY and Maine have been talking too much.

 

[BIGNASTY]

"Maine, the way life should be. "



It comes with a high price. My light bill is $120. 00 per month for two people living almost in the dark. A common light bill for a family of four with an electric hot water heater can easily be $250. 00 per month. Meanwhile we continue to rip out perfectly good dams so the Atlantic Salmon can get 2 miles further up the river... ..... but the Salmon don't seem all that interested.....

Meanwhile Quebec dams up anything that they can up for hydro power (and building fish ladders that work) reaping huge profits selling the power stateside. . makes perfect sense.



We'll just build a couple more state funded windmills, that ought'a even it up.....



Mike.

Im Sorry Mike but you made me Beller a bit on this one, hope nobody seen me :{ It IS THE WAY LIFE SHOULD BE!!! I know that not everyone can get out like we do. I was caught up in the money and possession thing for most of my life, I had to have the most, biggest. With that came a price to be paid that until we retired I really didn't give much thought to. We had ALWAYS plan to retire in MT and we didn't care about the size of the place just next to the mountains and stream that we missed in our fast paced life in Calif. With the help of FIL we were able to do what we wanted sooner than what was expected By Me anyway (that's another story)



I don't watch much TV But I really like the shows of this type of living, Mountain Men, life Below Zero, and a few more. On Mountain Men they have a new guy on from the North woods of Maine. I CANT TELL YA HOW MUCH I LIKE THIS GUYS THINKING. he's 10 steps ahead of where most people are, This was said on one of these shows that I cant get out of my head. Charlie Tucker is the guys name. Some of the others on the shows its a wonder that they have survived as long as they have, if breathing wasn't an involuntary process they would have died LONG AGO. :-laf



Its not ignorance that get's people killed in the wilderness but the lack of Preparation, That there is no BETTER WORDS FOR IT!!!!



http://www.history.com/shows/mountain-men/cast/charlie-tucker

 

[jgillott]

Wow. . this thread really took off since I was here at 5:00 AM. Like you Big, I take wood off of our place free. Just my labor and time. In fact, I don't remember the last time I took down a live tree other than when we are clearing an area. Usually just salvage the stuff that falls during the year and even at that, I never come close to running out. As with what Mike said, the key to burning indoor is having it ready a year in advance or more.

We have an old oil boiler here that we use when it only when it gets very cold. It is on it's last leg and I plan on replacing it with a Tarm or similar indoor gasification boiler in the future. We have those old cast iron radiators in this house and I will not give them up. Amazing heat. Anyway, whatever I buy, I would like it to have an electric backup and eliminate fuel oil all together. It is getting next to impossible to buy oil here and when you can get it, it is expensive. The companies here have started not delivering unless you buy 1000 gal or more at a time. Sort of impossible when you only have a 500 gal tank. If they will deliver, they give you a price penalty for the small quantity. I end up having to coordinate with the neighbors to buy when they do. Which, worked until last year and now the company we used in the past got upset about that.

 

[mwilson]

Im Sorry Mike but you made me Beller a bit on this one, hope nobody seen me :{ It IS THE WAY LIFE SHOULD BE!!! I know that not everyone can get out like we do. I was caught up in the money and possession thing for most of my life, I had to have the most, biggest. With that came a price to be paid that until we retired I really didn't give much thought to. We had ALWAYS plan to retire in MT and we didn't care about the size of the place just next to the mountains and stream that we missed in our fast paced life in Calif. With the help of FIL we were able to do what we wanted sooner than what was expected By Me anyway (that's another story)



I don't watch much TV But I really like the shows of this type of living, Mountain Men, life Below Zero, and a few more. On Mountain Men they have a new guy on from the North woods of Maine. I CANT TELL YA HOW MUCH I LIKE THIS GUYS THINKING. he's 10 steps ahead of where most people are, This was said on one of these shows that I cant get out of my head. Charlie Tucker is the guys name. Some of the others on the shows its a wonder that they have survived as long as they have, if breathing wasn't an involuntary process they would have died LONG AGO. :-laf



Its not ignorance that get's people killed in the wilderness but the lack of Preparation, That there is no BETTER WORDS FOR IT!!!!



http://www.history.com/shows/mountain-men/cast/charlie-tucker

I'm not saying that Maine is not a good place to live, only that it is not cheap as a rule to do so. We have a low population with over 50% of that population on the dole. The rest of us help pay the bills by paying higher property taxes, a sales tax hike was just enacted, higher utility bills, expensive health insurance (Maine does not have an insurer pool, only two carriers are allowed to offer insurance) so that rules out any kind of a deal on that, and on and on.....



A lot of our state has been bought up by people from away, then the "No Trespassing" signs go up, gates are built. When I was a child I could go anywhere I wanted as long as I respected the landowners wishes. The new landowners say no when asked, some as a result of the out of state ways and others for fear of liability. There goes another Maine way of life, one more reason to not put up with the rest of it.



Our youth (those with any gumption at all) up and leave because our anti-business climate fosters low paying jobs. Some of the coastal folk work three or four jobs during the year to survive at all.



If the Maine Mountain man winds up on Roxanne Quimby's massive land holdings in the Millinocket area they will throw him out of there. No trapping or hunting allowed. Hike and sing "Kumbaya" around the fire, that is about it.



Google "Roxanne Quimby" and feel the hate that the Maine natives (including myself) harbor for her and her kind. The same little pack of Lefties that will eventually kill off the true "Mainahs"... . Change comes, but I don't have to like it...



Mike.

 

[jgillott]

I think those changes happen everywhere. We have been overrun by what I call the McFarms. Now that the McMansions of the '90's are out of style here, the latest craze is to come out here, buy 2 or 3 acres, build a house and a small barn style shed, and live the rural life. Now that they are here, they can't stand the smell of the cows, hay, chickens, anything burning, spread or cut. There's hardly any land left that hasn't been posted and we are overrun by deer, bear and turkey. They don't want anyone to hunt anything yet they call the police when a bear wonders by their door. Amazing to me at this point.

 

[Grizzly]

We are getting ready to start a NEW HOME build for our Son's family. He was concerned with a wood stove for heat with a young one running around don't want to get him hurt. We have been looking into whole house woodstoves that go in the basement for heating his home and running heat ducts like any conventional home heating system. This way the hazard would be out of reach of the Grandson. I told him about the kind that are outside and would not only heat his house with radiant floor heating but would also be a source of hot water within the home. He didn't want to run OUTSIDE to load it up with wood in the middle of winter WHAT A BIG SISSY LA LA We have raised must be from his Moms side of the family ours would go out and dig up cow chips in mid-winter to burn them as a heat source. WHATS A DAD TO DO :-laf



Any Thoughts on this would be appreciated







BIG

Pard, This is what you need and just put a little fence around it.



I'd like to go up there and help build this house. I love to frame and have many times.



grizz

 

[BIGNASTY]

Grizz



Your welcome to come up and just be a supervisor along with the wife, she can just about drive a guy to jump at times on a job with all the armchair suggestions.



The way we build is different to say the least we use SIP panels and can have a 2000 sqft home weather tight in around 4 days depending on the type and amount of beer breaks. The pictures below kind of explain how this can be, we buy the panels in 4ft x 8ft solid and cut the openings with the saw below its an adapter that I put on my worm drive skill saw it cuts window and door openings in the panels both sides at one time. The heat iron is for removing the foam so a 2x4 can be put in the middle of the two panels and screwed together to make a more than solid joint. I add some sealant to the mix to make SURE that there is no air infiltration between the panels. ( over kill? Ive been told yes) but you only get 1 shot at this so I don't think that its TO MUCH. The hole in the panel is a raceway to run elect. they are spaced out and can be added in spots if need be we just drill thru the floor to make sure they line up and run the elect. on outside walls under the floor supports. We use engineered wood floor joists and cover with 3/4in OSB it makes for a quiet and strong floor.



The thing that I like about this type of build is that there are NO LOAD BEARING WALLS on the inside of the house. So you can build a home to what ever size you want and then put the inside walls to make rooms where ever and however big or small you want. We don't use roof truss's because our roof designs are not complicated usually just a rectangle house with a pretty steep roof pitch to get the snow off, you can do what ever roof type you want but BIL did one with a bunch of different angles and dormers he wishes that he wouldn't have done it. Then we wrap the house with Tyvek house wrap and put the windows in and I used Hardy Cement Board to cover the house (wont rot don't need paint cause mine is tinted AND MOST OF ALL IT WONT BURN) With a metal roof our house is TO TIGHT we have to open windows at times in the winter to let the heat OUT.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Re did the Daughters place for her its not the biggest but she's a good young gal that served her country and Mom and Dad were pretty DAMN PROUD of her, its the least we could do. It was gutted and a clean slate made the work better and easy.