Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Starting Problem

[J.Keith]

Howdy everybody.

Just to let you know who I am before I get into my problem.

My name is Joe Lowry and I'm from Loveland CO. (about 1 hr north of Denver)

I have a 1998. 5 Dodge 24 valve 5 speed, 4x4 3/4 ton quad cab. 198,000 miles



Now for the real good stuff.

About 2 months ago I replaced my fuel filter and ever since then I have been having trouble hot starting my truck. It will start fine when it is cool, however when it is wamed up from driving, oh, about 15 minutes it will somtimes not start. When it does not start right away (5 seconds of cranking) I have to just keep cranking on and off for about 5 seconds at a time for sometimes 15 to 20 times before it will start. This is, needless to say, very unhandy for me and hard on the starter. When it does start it is always right away after I start cranking somwhere in the 15 to 20 sequence.

I hope I am making myself clear. Questions if I'm confusing you please.

So here is what I have done,

1st I made sure that there was no air in the line by cracking the banjo bolt on the injector pump and the bumping the starter to make the lift pump run.

I did this about 4 times and bled out alot of fuel but I didn't see any air coming out of it. I don't think that there is any air in the line now. This did not fix the problem.

I should mention that once started it runs as good as it ever did.





2nd I took it to a shop called Diesel Services in Ft. Collins. They could not reproduce the problem when it was there. They said that they checked all the fuel pressures and they were fine. Still had the problem.





3rd On a trip to Neb. It quit in Ogalala. Totally died. It would crank but not start. Took it to a shop up there. The guy thought it was the fuel shutoff valve at first so he checked that out and determined that it was ok. Next after he ran his diagnostics tool he said that the ECM was toast so 3 days and $1600 later I went to pick it up. It started cold so I headed home and went the whole way no problem but when I shut it off at home after a 3 hr drive, it was back to the same old problem. Not Cool.



Next I took it to the dealer and had them check it out. They said it was the injector pump. Now before I spend that kind of money I would like to know if anyone has any idea what it could be and maybe someone else has had this problem.



Any comments, questions, or advice is apperciated

Thank everyone

Joe

 

[MKizziah]

Might Wanna test Your LP output volume

Hey Joe,



Had same symptoms. . Took mine to dealer, they tested the LP output volume was only getting 6 oz vs 64 oz per min. Just put in a FASS got to dark to see. . so I'll bleed it tomorrow . .



Good Luck,

Matt

 

[EGaskamp]

I have a 2001 cummins and had the same problem, exept mine started but cranked for 5-10 seconds before it started. At first I thought my lift pump was going bad. I replaced that but it kept doing it. It happened to be the the starter solenoid. Hope this helps you out.

 

[mburns]

I had the same trouble the other day. It had be doing it off and on. Turned out to be the lift pump not the vp44, its been a few days and it hasnt messed up yet so I think I fixed the problem

 

[J.Keith]

Thanks guys

Is their a way to test the output volume myself or do I take it to the dealer?

How difficult is it to change the lift pump?

 

[Tcolesanti]

I would replace the lift pump with one from Cummins ($150) right now, to see if that is your problem (I think it is). Do you know when the last time it was checked or replaced? It could be really tired, still working but tired, and not priming the pump in the 3 seconds the lift pump runs before a hot start.

Try under a hot start, just "bumping" the starter to get the lift pump to run longer, (25 seconds) and then try to start it.

 

[Todd T]

Lift pump. do you have any way to check you LP pressure. are there any TDR memebers on your area that might have a test guage you can drive it around on for a day or so? if not, I can mail you mine! just tie it to the Mr. schrader valve (Gotta Love that Briar Hopper) on the banjo at the VP44 and run it up to the windshield and go for a few hotlaps.



Also, i hate to say this but the $1600 bill was highway robbery. first of all, the 24vavle trucks have no fuel shutoff solenoid. if he checked and told you it was OK that's when you should have started backing out the door. if he was mistaken and told you Oh' yours is a 98. 5 and doesnt have one that's another story. reading the door emblems should have clued him in though.

 

[Todd T]

BTW isnt ATS (the transmission shop) up in your area? look those guys up they should be able to help too.



take your key and turn it to run and off three times leaving to run on the third try. this will make the truck spit out any codes stored in the PCM in the odometer. write them down (if any) and let us know what they are here. we can take you from there.



the trick Tcolesanti showed you is also good for filling the filter housing back up after a filter change or any time you open the fuel system. just bump the starter and let off and you should hear the lift pump running for 20 seconds or so. with the test guage or regular fuel pressure guage installed you can observe the pressure.

 

[J.Keith]

Ok guys I went ahead and replaced the lift pump. Better now but not as good as it used to be. It started right away after I put the new pump in but it was cold. Got it hot and it was better but not perfect. Is there anythng I might have missed? I bled the line out that goes to the fuel filter and like I said it started and ran fine right off. What next? I'm going to get some gauges for this truck. I was thinking a pyrometer ,boost, and is it possible to put a fuel pressure guage in also? What kind of guages are recommened? Where do I get them? Thanks for all the help.

Joe

 

[MKizziah]

Right there with you

Put the FASS in lastnight, bled it this AM. . Fired right up, drove to work (10 mi) . tried to restart , no go. cools off fire right up after a few cranks. FP gauge was @ 16 . 15 WOT. Got lots of flow . . about 1 quart in 5-10 secs. . I hate to think VP44 is next. .



MAtt

 

[Pmaloney]

I myself fought this problem. VERY frusterating and embarassing with people around Mine ended up being the crank sensor, I learned this after having a gut feeling that it was the injection pump, which I replaced with a version 027 which did not fix it :{ , but the 40. 00 crankshaft position sensor did. And now at least I feel good on my vp-44. Hope this helps

 

[MKizziah]

Jeez, It's worth the $40 to try the crank sensor. . I've spend that much on beer for the guys that pushed me out the intersection . . lol . .

Thanks

 

[GatorRam]

I've spend that much on beer for the guys that pushed me out the intersection . . lol . .

Thanks

Been there before. These things seem to get heavier when you're Pi$$ed off. I'm in the same boat with the hard start when hot but I find that if I bump the starter when hot to do an extended cycle on the LP setup it makes it about as easy as starting when the engine has sat overnight (still not as quick as normal). Still trying to find a fix before I buy a third VP.



Adam

 

[J.Keith]

All right then. I think that I'll try the crank sensor next. BTW bumping the starter and then waiting for the LP to run the 20 seconds or whatever doesn't help either.

 

[MKizziah]

Update

Bypassed the stock filter and went straight to the VP from the FASS . Put the FP gauge inline on the fuel hose near the VP. Was worried there might be some blockage in the stogk filter. Bled it and bang it started. . got warm and same ole thing. . warm no start



Noticed some wierd things with the FP and FASS not running. Check voltage at harness and get 8+ v there with key on. .

Now I think I got a funky relay. .

When the fuel pressure gets to 8-10lbs it fires right up warm



I did order the Crank posistion sensor $53 @ dealer ( Cali Prices I guess).



Will install CKP tomorrow. Doesn't look like fun. . Starter pull .

Any shortcuts on that job would be appreciated



Cheers,

Matt

 

[Pmaloney]

I believe pulling the starter is the only way. It is very simple, there are 2 or 3 10MM 12 point bolts holding it on and I just let the starter dangle and on 6pt 10mm if I remember correctly to remove the crankshaft position sensor. Very easy. Hope it helps your problems

 

[Hohn]

Hope that this isn't your VP. Hard starting only when hot is usually VP related.



I have a hard start problem, but it's because my truck loses prime when it's sat for a while. Thus, mine is only hard to start when it's sat a little bit. If it's been running within the last 10 min or so, it fires instantly.



I think I may have a bad injector connector tube O-ring.



Justin

 

[J.Keith]

Alright guys I did the crank sensor this morning. Took about half an hour.

BUT it did not fix this thing. However one thing I just noticed is that when cranking, just when I let off the key it will fire but not enough to start. Ignition switch? Could it be a crappie relay? I really don't want to do the injection pump. BTW just to make sure that I stay with you, you guy's call the injection pump a V44 what does that stand for? Model?

Thanks

Joe

 

[MKizziah]

Yes the VP44 is the bosch injection pump.



I'm starting to think my FASS lift pump is flaky. . I by passed the relay and went straight 12v on a switch to the FASS. I went straight to the VP44 from the FASS. Put an inline T near the VP44 to my fuel pressure gauge.



I hit the switch on the FASS, pump runs, I don't get any pressure on the guage. I bleed the fuel line at the guage, tons of air, and foamy fuel. . when it finally flows clean. bleed a couple of injectors, It starts FP goes to 15 all is good. Turn motor off. FP stays @ 15 psi . If I leave the FASS running to keep the prime it will start like new. AS soon as I shut off everything. FP drops. Let it sit a couple of minutes and I'm back where I started. Have to go through the whole bleed cycle again for it to start. BTW no leaks anywhere in the fuel sysem.



My simpleminded conclusion



There is no check valve anywhere in the fuel system or it's not working if there is.

Does anyone know if there is a check valve in the FASS?

Is this the weak spring deal I've been reading about in the FASS?



Another weekend driving the POS toyota.



Matt

 

[J.Keith]

OK guys I'm going to do it. Is there anything I should look out for when replacing the VP44 ? Any tips or tricks? Or is this just a big pain in the butt.

I'll get at it tuesday.

Thanks, Joe