2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Steering Woes

[Dave M]

Well... . I'm not sure what to do now. I been chasing the "Death wobble" so in July I replaced all control arm bushings with Energy Suspension poly bushings, all 4 shocks with Bilstein's, sway bar links/bushings, Luke's link on track bar and poly bushing on axle end, 2 front Rancho Steering Stabilizer shocks. Had front end shop check ball joint/tie rod or anything else that might be bad and they said all was good so I had 6 new BFG 235/85R16 tires put on, balanced and aligned.



Front end was tight till about 1 month ago. Wobble came back. Checked all bolts and retorqued them. Nothing was loose except for right front lower control arm (Caster adjustment) bolt/nut. I could move them with my hand. Tire shop says the right front tire is worn thru the second layer on outside edge and needs replaced.



Why is the caster bolt coming loose? I noticed the same bolt was loose when I started replacing stuff in July. Can you loctite it? I got another bolt coming from Dodge so I'll replace it this weekend. Can the loose bolt cause the tire to wear on the outside edge like it did? I noticed the same kind of wear on the tires I replaced. Could something else be causing this tire wear?



Why did I let it get this bad? Well, my wife drives it most of the time and I was busy for the last 6 weeks doing a re-plumbing of my house and was way to busy to check on it soon enough. Now I got a 4 month old tire that is garbage fodder.



Ok you front end guys out there can you give me some sage advice? Check out the pics and sig. I want this front end trouble to end... Help!



Dave

 

[Dave M]

UpDate:



The new caster bolt and nut came in to the dealer and will be shipped and arrive tomorrow. Tomorrow night I'll put the new one in. I have to re-use the old washer since that was 30 days on back order. I'll be looking real close at the old bolt and nut for signs of wear.



I'm going to use blue loctite on the bolt unless someone chimes in otherwise. I don't want that nut coming loose again. Going to tell the tire shop to align it to 3. 5 degrees positive caster. I believe thats what most set it to. Any comments out there... let me have them. Friday morn I'll get a new tire put on and have the alignment done.



Thanks,

Dave

 

[Dave M]

Well, I guess there are no opinions out there on this one since there are no responses to this post.



Here's an update with more pics: (The darker of the 2 bolts is the old bolt. The new bolt is lighter coloured and white looking in the pics)



I got the new bolt and nut from Dodge and installed it. I looked over the old bolt and bolt hole very carefully. The bolt hole in the axle bracket looks OK compared to the other bracket.



It's hard to see in the pic but the old bolt has a flat spot about 1/2 in long and 1/8 deep next to the eccentric washer (which is part of the bolt) and below the hole in the bolt head/washer. Also on the other end of the bolt just before the threads start there is a similiar flat spot 1/4 inch long by 1/8 deep. its next to the machined flat spot which mates with the eccentric washer under the nut.



Looks like a bad bolt. The nut and washer look ok.



Got the new tire installed and aligned. Truck rides normal again. After I installed the new bolt (before I got the new tire) and set the caster adjustment and torqued it, the shake was gone. After the alignment it seems good but it feels like its wandering a bit left to right. I have to keep correcting it. Its not real bad but very annoying. Before all this the steering felt tighter and didn't require constant correcting.



Looks like a loose caster bolt can cause death wobble and will ruin a front tire FAST.

 

[Dave M]

More Pics for the curious ones:

 

[McLaughlin]

Do you think the truck wander was masked by the loose bolt in the control arm? From what I've read you may be seeing some looseness from the steering assembly that was covered by the wooble.

 

[Dave M]

Do you think the truck wander was masked by the loose bolt in the control arm? From what I've read you may be seeing some looseness from the steering assembly that was covered by the wooble.

Well. . Yes. You read my mind. I do have a small power steering leak at the pitman arm (I believe or maybe the power steering pump). I plan to replace the box with PSC but probably not till after Xmas.



I seen this leak back in July during the alignment while I was BS'ing with the tech. But the interesting thing is that back in July after all the front end stuff was replaced the truck was very tight and ran straight. until now (well about a month ago). Since my wife drives the truck more than me I don't know when it started getting loose for certain.



I need to crawl under my baby and check out the steering... again... for looseness... . uhum... here I go again. I'm not sure if the alignment needs redone or not yet. Not sure if bad alignment would cause this. Also, the steering wheel is a little off center... that bugs me too.



Dave

 

[scotmartin]

I used to get a popping sound when I would get on the brakes hard. Found out that it was the eccentric popping out of the guide. It would move almost 1/2 inch. After putting the truck on an alighnment rack and marking the "perfect" spot for the eccentrics I welded them in place. Of course I did all of this after replacing them to no avail. The horseshoe shaped guide were too badly worn.

 

[McLaughlin]

I need to crawl under my baby and check out the steering... again... for looseness... . uhum... here I go again. I'm not sure if the alignment needs redone or not yet. Not sure if bad alignment would cause this. Also, the steering wheel is a little off center... that bugs me too.



Dave

Read someplace, don't remember if it was on TDR or elsewhere, that only a small amount of movement on the pitman shaft (40 to 50mm?) was enough to cause noticable wander. Not sure how easy that will be to see it would only be about 1/10 of an inch side-to-side or front-to-back.

 

[Dave M]

I used to get a popping sound when I would get on the brakes hard. Found out that it was the eccentric popping out of the guide. It would move almost 1/2 inch. After putting the truck on an alighnment rack and marking the "perfect" spot for the eccentrics I welded them in place. Of course I did all of this after replacing them to no avail. The horseshoe shaped guide were too badly worn.

WOW! I didn't expect that to happen! I'll certaintly keep an eye on the caster bolt for awhile.



The alignment tech did mention that he has seen loose caster nuts/bolt on these trucks before. I'll see if replacing it does any good. One thing he said was that the caster eccentric did not allow more than a tenth or 2 tenths percent adjustment anyhow. He felt it wasn't enough to bother with. Anyone else agree with that? i did notice the bolt doesn't allow much movement for adjusting.

Read someplace, don't remember if it was on TDR or elsewhere, that only a small amount of movement on the pitman shaft (40 to 50mm?) was enough to cause noticable wander. Not sure how easy that will be to see it would only be about 1/10 of an inch side-to-side or front-to-back.

I agree. It would be hard to see that little movement. That steering box is leaking and makes me wonder if the box is steadly getting worse. Sure be nice to have the front end tight like it was in July. Kinda got me spoiled now. :-laf



Thanks for the replies. I knew someone out there must be listening. Its nice to have company when your at a loss for an expanation. I'll try to look tomorrow afternoon under the truck and keep ya posted. Any more comments... please do.



Thanks,

Dave

 

[Dave M]

Update:



Crawled under the front end and had my son wiggling steering wheel while I searched for any loose joints. The only thing I noticed loose was the track bar (the end I put a Luke's Link on) moved up towards the frame bracket maybe 1 inch when turning wheel toward drivers side and back down when turning toward passengers side. Is this normal? What do ya think? Maybe it needs re-adjusted/torqued.

 

[THUREN]

Update:



Crawled under the front end and had my son wiggling steering wheel while I searched for any loose joints. The only thing I noticed loose was the track bar (the end I put a Luke's Link on) moved up towards the frame bracket maybe 1 inch when turning wheel toward drivers side and back down when turning toward passengers side. Is this normal? What do ya think? Maybe it needs re-adjusted/torqued.

You should be able to see ZERO movement... .



If you can see it with your eyes you have a problem... If that thing is moving a true INCH you have a VERY serious problem and it needs quick help. If you had . 25" I'd say you had a big problem... Also, you might want to knock the cam-bolt-guides back in place and tack-weld them so they dont move again...



Don

 

[Dave M]

You should be able to see ZERO movement... .



If you can see it with your eyes you have a problem... If that thing is moving a true INCH you have a VERY serious problem and it needs quick help. If you had . 25" I'd say you had a big problem... Also, you might want to knock the cam-bolt-guides back in place and tack-weld them so they dont move again...



Don

I kinda had a feeling that was the case. Thanks for the reply Don. I'll wait till thursday or Friday to check it out in daylight instead of after work at nite. I'll keep ya posted.



As far as the cam bolt movement... for now I'm going to keep a close watch on them before I weld the bolt to the plate. The bottom ends of the horseshoe shaped guide does look like its sticking out a little and I may try weld that part back down. You can see it in some of the earlier pics.



I got to get out the installation instructions for "Luke's link" and figure out how to do it. I may take it apart to be sure it is installed correctly. I seem to remember it wasn't easy to do. Or was that the Sway bar that I had to drop in order to replace the sway bar end links... hmmm. I did some many things to this front end... . geeez!



Tonight while my son turned the steering wheel I took pics of the "Luke's Link" movement. The pic as you view it in your upper left is wheels straight ahead. Pic in your lower left is wheel turned toward drivers side. Pic in your upper right is wheel turned toward passenger side and bottom right is a pic viewed more from underneath but I don't remember where the wheel was turned.



It looks like the "lukes Link " is moving and I need to check out why. An inch is probably not accurate after looking at it again. I don't know... hmm. . maybe I'm just seeing (just a line of sight guess... not a measurement) 1/4-1/2 inch change in the gap. But I CAN see a difference in the gap between the top/left side of the link and the underside of the frame bracket it is attached to.



I assume this movement is not supposed to happen. I'll know better when I get my hands dirty and pop it off. That is if I can get it off easily. So what is best way to get it off? Pickle fork or pitman arm puller if mine is big enough?



Well... wish me luck... I'm going in... well... in a few days anyhow! :-laf



BTW At least there is zero movement on the axle end of the track bar.



Thanks for the replies so far.



Dave

 

[McLaughlin]

I looked at my trackbar the other day while my daughter turned the wheel. The trackbar ball end seemed to be moving 1/8 to 1/4 in. I am getting some wander. Will let you know how the 3rd gen trackbar install goes.

 

[Dave M]

I looked at my trackbar the other day while my daughter turned the wheel. The trackbar ball end seemed to be moving 1/8 to 1/4 in. I am getting some wander. Will let you know how the 3rd gen trackbar install goes.

What track bar kit are you planning on going with? The 3rd gen bar is starting to sound real good but... . it's a bit costly for me right now.



I'll see if I can eliminate the wander by tightening up the "luke's Link" on mine. Can't get to it till Thursday.



I'll be interested in your results.



Dave

 

[McLaughlin]

What track bar kit are you planning on going with? The 3rd gen bar is starting to sound real good but... . it's a bit costly for me right now.



I'll see if I can eliminate the wander by tightening up the "luke's Link" on mine. Can't get to it till Thursday.



I'll be interested in your results.



Dave

I hope to install a Solid Steel 3rd gen trackbar tomorrow and maybe the Solid Steel steering stabilizer on Friday. I've only got about 3 to 4 in of play in the steering so I'm interested to see how tight the steering gets at each stage. I'm also going to put Luke's Links on my tierod ends but I'm not sure how to tighten the ball into the sockets. I've gotta read up some more on those. The 3rd gen trackbar mod is a bit pricy but I wasn't convinced the other solutions would last for as long as I'd like. Besides I originally had planned to get the adjustable trackbar but found out it wasn't required if I didn't lift the truck (which I don't intend to)

 

[Dave M]

Luke's link: Great custmor service!

Update:



I sent an email today to the folks at "luke's Link" describing my problem and included a link to this thread. They called me back just a few hours after I sent the email and discussed the problem with me. All I can say is... That's great customer service! Oo.



They confirmed for me what Don Thuren said earlier (Thanks Don) that there should be ZERO play in that joint. They offered to send me for FREE the rebuild kit to add an extra shim washer. Extras came with the link but I haven't found what I did with them yet . They gave me the dimensions for the washer and said I could get one at hardware store.



Since the link is rebuildable, they told me how to add a shim washer and tighten it up. Hopefully, tomorrow I should find out if this will cure my steering looseness. The spring (its just looks to me like a plastic type piece about 1 inch or so long) could have compressed enough to cause the looseness, since I never re-checked it again after the initial install of the link in July.



I'll post my results.



Dave

 

[GMac]

i built my track bar out of 1. 5" DOM tubing with . 75" rod ends on each end. I can adjust it to where my front end is centered and it took out alot of wander. There is definitely no movement in my front end. The 3rd Gen was too expensive for me so I decided to build one myself. The only thing is the you feel more of the road in the truck because you are eliminating bushings but that is a small price to pay in my book. I would definitely upgrade the track bar as soon as possible. It does make a big difference.

 

[Dave M]

Track Bar Tight now!

Update:



Removed "lukes Link" from track bar and added a 2nd shim washer and re-assembled link, torqued to 35 ft-lbs, checked torque on track bar ball joint stud (70 ft-lbs no change), retorqued axle bolt on track bar to 130 ft-lbs since I loosened it during link disassembly.



There is now ZERO movement in the track bar when moving steering wheelside to side... . YaHoo!



Took truck for 10 mile ride and rechecked... Its Still Tight. Not sure about steering looseness... it feels Ok. . but since the roads are curvey here I'll have to wait till I go to the city to checkout the steering slop I had before. For now its seems better. It might be pulling a little to right... Would messing with the track bar be the cause of that? I'll keep an eye on it.

i built my track bar out of 1. 5" DOM tubing with . 75" rod ends on each end. I can adjust it to where my front end is centered and it took out alot of wander. There is definitely no movement in my front end. The 3rd Gen was too expensive for me so I decided to build one myself. The only thing is the you feel more of the road in the truck because you are eliminating bushings but that is a small price to pay in my book. I would definitely upgrade the track bar as soon as possible. It does make a big difference.

I agree... . It appears the track bar makes a big difference in the steering. Still, my steering has improved but it is not what I'd like. It doesn't feel tight enough yet.



I'm thinking about a DSS and 2003 track bar and maybe convert to crossover steering... Big Bucks that I can't afford right now! :{ Well. . Christmas is coming up.



Thanks all for replies. If anything happens I'll repost.



Dave

 

[AKAMAC]

Dave,

The pull can be caused by axle centering. If the axle is moved left it will pull left, the same is true to the right. You may need to get an adjustable trac-bar or raise the FE a 1/2" or so to compensate for spring sag. The wear that you see can be a symptom of tracking problems and show feathering on the tire that is usually associated with toe adjustment. Mike

 

[Dave M]

Dave,

The pull can be caused by axle centering. If the axle is moved left it will pull left, the same is true to the right. You may need to get an adjustable trac-bar or raise the FE a 1/2" or so to compensate for spring sag. The wear that you see can be a symptom of tracking problems and show feathering on the tire that is usually associated with toe adjustment. Mike

Bear with me here cause I'm a newbie with front end suspension. When you say the axle is not centered... in relation to what? Is it front to rear or (I assume) side to side... . that is, left tire to right tire. How can I tell if the axle is not centered? How do I know when the axle is centered?



Are you saying you think my front right tire wear could be due to axle centering and/or toe adjustment? I'd like to align it myself since I keep having these problems and its $59 a pop.



It very likely (with 160K+ miles) my front coil springs are sagging. I'd like to lift the front at least 2 inches. Can that be done with coil spacers that I've seen on "Thurens" web site. Does that mean the shocks (that I just replaced with Bilsteins) need replaced with longer ones along with the shock towers?



How do you like the "Thuren" track bar? Since that has "heim" joints it would seem a straight thru 2003 style track bar would be tighter? I'd like to switch to "thurens" track bar and (someday) his crossover steering.



I'm at a crossroads here as to what to do next... . add a lift (to get rid of sag) and then new track bar and DSS steering stabilizer. Lots of money will be spent!



Thanks,

Dave