Step 5 Injectors

[Partyat33]

I have been waiting for some feedback on the Bullydog Step 5 injectors. I only know of two people that have them. Surely there must be others.



I need more power.



So, come on-- are they great or what ???

 

[TxDieselKid]

You want to step up to the plate.....with an EZ?

I have heard about ... . "oh they smoke so much more"... . "they arn't as good a quilty as DD... ", but I was about to get the BD's myself. They will add the horsepower what what I have heard. But if you want more power then why not look into getting a fueling box? I notice from your sig that you only list an EZ, is this right? If so I would try a bigger box, I know the TST 10-level is popular with a lot of the GLTDR boys, even though I prefer the Comp myself.



Step 5 BD's will crank out the power though.



Andrew

 

[Partyat33]

My understanding is that with the ETH I would only gain about 20 more HP with a fueling box over the plain EZ. Not really worth the cost and piercing the wire.



If there is a fueling box that kicks the EHT in the pants like an ETC, I would be all over it.



Dennis

 

[TxDieselKid]

uuuuhhhhhhh, 20 horses, for a Comp box?

I don't think that this is right Dennis. HERE is a dyno chart with the "Ultimate Fueling Module"(same as the Edge COMP) on a 2001 ETH with stage 2 injectors, and a bigger turbo. With no box it got 306hp/604lbs-ft, with the box on level 5 it brought 460hp/932lbs-ft. That's 150 horsepower. Now to get that type of number I would also say you would need a bigger turbo, but with stage 2's now, you should be good, for a while, then I would think a B-1 would be up your ally.



Andrew

 

[Partyat33]

I have talked to Edge, and others about this at length. Maybe I was just dreaming. Time to pick up the phone again and check it out.



Dennis

 

[TxDieselKid]

try again i guess....

Try calling Diesel Dynamics, or I prefer getting my goods from Stefan K. at DTT. I really think that 20hp from a major fueling box(plucks the pump wire), is just on the lowest setting.



I just got out of class and am suprised that no one else has posted on here yet. Guys, tell me I am not wrong here, but I saw a TST powermax3 as the only mod on a truck at the dyno day last week make 327? This being the ONLY mod, no injectors, or turbo, stock exhaust and all.



Andrew

 

[TomGolden]

Ok guys, here's what I have heard/been told directly by people I consider very reliable, knowledgeable sources on just this subject.



I went from an EZ to an Edge Comp box 2 months ago. I dyno'd with the EZ, put down 368 HP/790 TQ. I have not yet dyno'd with the Comp, but from drag racing with each box, I would speculate that at *most*, it gives an ETH maybe 40 more horses than the EZ box - with my BOMBs anyway.



The people I know that have Bully Dog 5's are: Chris Sutton [csutton7 - 99 24V Cummins], HVAC [98. 5 or 99 24 Valve], Scott W. [BigSaint - 2001 ETH I think] and Jim [Cumminstrkn - 2001 ETH]. There are likely more that I don't know of, or have forgotten.



I have been told that due to the unfortunate workings of the particular VP44 that comes on the ETH, you are very limited regardless of which injectors and/or fueling boxes you use. If you went from, say en EZ and DD/BD 3 injectors on an ETC motor up to a Comp and stage 5 injectors, you would get the extreme HP/TQ increase that you would expect. But on the ETH, we just ain't gonna get all that much because our VP44 limits the amount of fuel that it passes to the injectors, much more so than any other Cummins ISB injector pump.



I also know there have been one or two claims that with an ETH and Comp/stage 5 combos it is possible to reach 500+ HP, but since there are only one or two such claims compared to the number of really BOMBed ETH's out there, I am quite skeptical.



These are my personal opinions and understandings, and I'm just sharing them as such. I certainly don't know it all



Tom

 

[Bob Wagner]

Great information Tom



Thanks

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Don't be too skeptical. Diesel Dynamics has gotten ETHs over 500 hp.

 

[TomGolden]

Joe,



I had honestly forgotten about the magicians at Diesel Dynamics and their recent HP breakthroughs on their ETH truck(s). But I'd speculate they managed those numbers with their new cams and their vp44 modifications too



I was going along the lines of what any or all of us can readily and easily obtain right now to add to our ETH's to get the big numbers. Hopefully later this year, those DD advancements will also become readily available. Thought not too likely cheap ones... ...



Tom

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by TomGolden

The people I know that have Bully Dog 5's are: Chris Sutton [csutton7 - 99 24V Cummins], HVAC [98. 5 or 99 24 Valve], Scott W. [BigSaint - 2001 ETH I think] and Jim [Cumminstrkn - 2001 ETH]. There are likely more that I don't know of, or have forgotten.

Okay, I'm holding these guys hands,, even though they don't know it. I'm a baby BOMBer, Time for some meat.



What kinda turbo is needed ?



I'm looking at KWIKKURTS B-1 turbo mainly,, (Twins seem out of my league) and I'm also looking at the BD5's, Supermentals, or maybe even some custom made injectors (I want some 200HP injectors, What are BD5's?)



MerrickNJr

 

[TomGolden]

Well, Nowel [HVAC] of course has twins. Chris & Jim have single turbos, and I believe Scott does also. I don't know precisely which turbos any of these guys have, but the minimum you want in my opinion would be an HX40, in whatever form.



I, too, have been following Kurt's B-1 threads, and am very interested. My bone stock HX40 has so mucg lag at the drag strip, it drives me nuts. But I bought it before any of these new hybrid turbos were out (Pier's, Kurt's,..... ).



If you are going to wait until you can afford stage 5 type injectors, and a major fueling box, and new clutch or DTT transmission mods, I'd personally say get Kurt's B-1 turbo. My personal philosophy has always been to wait until I can afford the absolute top of the line BOMB and do that, rather than doing it piecemeal. i. e. going from stock injectors to DD 1's to DD 2's to 3's to... ..... You get the idea.



Just my personal preference.



Tom

 

[Bigsaint]

Me like step 5's, mmmmmm

That being stated, I have not dyno'ed since I replaced the BD 3's with the 5's, so I have only my seat 'O pants meter to go by. Once spring comes and I have all the winter blend out of my truck, I'm going back to the same dyno I was on with the 3's and I'll post the dyno numbers.



I can tell ya that they rock pretty darn hard. My boost with the 3's and the HX40/EZ seldom went beyond 40 psi's, no matter what I did. With the 5's and the EZ box, I can hit 40 psi's with a stomp of the go pedal in fourth gear and in 5th/6th, 45 psi's are real easy to see ( the HX40 is wastegated at 45 psi's in my truck).



They are somewhat 'snotty', with a usually smooth idle that, on occassion does the ' romp, romp, romp'. The smoke isn't much worse than the 3's, really dependant on the temp. /humidity level outside and how much you get in it with low boost, just like any other large set of injectors.



Updating your fuel system is a must with the 5's, IMHO. They really suck fuel. I swapped out all in bound banjo bolts and replaced them with Aeroquip elbows/Weber adapters and braided line before I added the step 5's. With the Mallory set at 13 psi's post filter @ idle, I see a drop to about 6 psi's at initial WOT and then a steady 8 psi's through the WOT run.



Partyat33, I don't see a clutch upgrade in your sig. line. If you are still using the OEM clutch I'd plan on replacing that first, and then upgrading the fuel system, prior to the 5's.



As for the turbo, mine is a HX40 which I purchased from Auto Wurks Diesel http://www.autowurksdiesel.com/ . Mines been in since last Jan. , no problems. Mike P. , the owner of Auto Wurks, recommended the A. T. S. manifold when I purchased the turbo and that, combined with the 'Scotty air system' make for very controllable egt's in my truck.



Hope this helps your decision !!!



Scott W.

 

[csutton7]

well I have the BD5's but I took them out as they're a bear to drive with in the city--truck jerks around when trying to stop--of course I've got an Auto and this is part of the prob--no clutch to push in--they sometimes make your truck idle like an overcammed gasser--but they do add some HP--how much is what I don't know---I'll be slapping 'em back in to dyno and see how much better they are than the DDIII's in HP---BD claims 200hp--I'm thinking of trying a comp box to see if that will help with the city driving, but I need to find time to do all this and that's a little tuff right now---chris

 

[MCummings]

csutton7, BigSaint, TomGolden.



These are the posts I like to see, Thanks.



I always like to hear the flip side of High HP, not just the "I made 600RWHP" I like to hear how the truck works as a daily driver.



Thanks,

MerrickNJr



P. S. Quick replies too

 

[KLockliear]

Re: uuuuhhhhhhh, 20 horses, for a Comp box?

Originally posted by TxDieselKid

I don't think that this is right Dennis. HERE is a dyno chart with the "Ultimate Fueling Module"(same as the Edge COMP) on a 2001 ETH with stage 2 injectors, and a bigger turbo.

Actually Andrew, that was Mark's 2001 Auto (ETC) truck.

Originally posted by TomGolden

I would speculate that at *most*, it gives an ETH maybe 40 more horses than the EZ box

You're pretty darn close Tom. From our testing, we've seen about 35hp on setting 1 and about 95-100hp on setting 5 on an ETH.

Originally posted by TomGolden

I also know there have been one or two claims that with an ETH and Comp/stage 5 combos it is possible to reach 500+ HP

Heberam is the only guy I know of that is up there with an ETH. He has an HX-40, DDUPM and SuperMentals. He made 470hp at the Pahrump thing on #2, and 526hp with LPG too.

Originally posted by TomGolden

I had honestly forgotten about the magicians at Diesel Dynamics and their recent HP breakthroughs on their ETH truck(s). But I'd speculate they managed those numbers with their new cams and their vp44 modifications too

We have seen an ETH with our VP44 make in the 550hp range on #2 in testing, but that's not available yet. And that truck did NOT have a cam.



EDIT - That truck did NOT have OUR AFTERMARKET cam.

 

[MCummings]

Pardon the humour....

Originally posted by KLockliear

We have seen an ETH with our VP44 make in the 550hp range on #2 in testing, but that's not available yet. And that truck did NOT have a cam.

So yall have one upped EVERYBODY,, Now you've got Cummins motors making 550HP WITHOUT CAMS! When is the new "Camless Cummins" gonna be available to to the General public ?



I've heard the Powerstroke/International had done something about Camless Powerstroke,, I guess that's one more "-less" thing you can add to a Powerstroke... Camless, Gutless, Powerless,. . etc.



MerrickNJr

 

[Partyat33]

I know that with any more power my clutch will be toast. But why replace it before I trash it. What fun would that be.



I am really trying to decide on the upside vs. the downside of these injectors. Obviously the upside is power, what are the downsides ? Rough idle ? Way to much smoke to be practical in everyday driving, cylinder washdown ?



I 'think' I would be happy with about 400 ponies, so maybe III's or IV's would do. The II's are good but not enough. They don't smoke much at all with the EZ turned off. They smoke 'a lot' with the EZ turned on at low boost.



Dennis

 

[MCummings]

Originally posted by Partyat33

I 'think' I would be happy with about 400 ponies.



Dennis

I have DD1's and a PE COMP, BHAF, ATS Manifold, and a rather "Free-Flowing" exhaust.

I've been told by a couple people here that my setup will yield about 375RWHP. I have one of the very first of the '98. 5's.



I'm looking for downsides as I am at a prime stage in my life where I am working enough to have money, yet still have enough time to be able to do things I want to do(Things will change).



I am looking at some HUMOUNGOUS Injectors, as I have two 5" stacks on Backorder. What are the downsides of these showerheads? I know when I was at a rally and I met Stefan Kondolay there, I think he had Supermentals, and his ideal was "Lopey" Sounded way cool (Overcammed gasser) but What does it feel like?

How does that drive?

How sensitive is the "Go Pedal"?

How much higher are EGT's when driving "Normal"?

How deadly is this to the VP44?



Okay, now that I have some of my questions asked, I have some more Questions that are more specific to MY truck.



Can I install BD5's and keep my stock turbo wastegated at 34-38 Pounds until more $$ comes in??

What about my SBC MU 0090 Con OFE?? Just installed it,, Excellent clutch, has a SLIGHT amount of chatter, but the small amount of chatter is well worth the light pedal pressure, and the holding power.



What will BD5's (or Supermentals) do to my F. P. at WFO with a new lift pump, and new VP44? Will it stay above 1-2PSI ?



Thanks in advance for anyone who takes the time to help out us Baby BOMBers.



MerrickNJr

 

[Bigsaint]

Dennis, the 'rough idle' is very intermitent, in my truck. More times than not, the idle is very smooth. I'm not sure I can answer the question on wash down, though my last oil sample stated that the " insolubles ( oil oxidation and soot) improved tp 0. 4%, showing good oil filtration and complete combustion". Thats a quote from the Blackstone labs analysis on the last sample, which was taken at 3,000 miles, all of those miles were with the 5's. That being stated, I wouldn't plan on extended idle time, especially when it's cold outside, with the showerheads of any variety. All my idle time is spent with the ebrake on.



I never ran with the stage 2 injectors, but I had the 3's for a few months, along with the EZ. My EZ box is and always been set on the most aggressive jumper. I mention this in regards to your comment on the stage 2's and the EZ, stating that they smoked alot with low boost. I believe that the issue of smoke is very personal as to what you feel is okay for a daily driver. The smoke from the 3's and the EZ wasn't bad at all, for me. The smoke from the 5's and the EZ is controllable but considerably thicker with low boost. You really have to adjust your driving habits with the 5's as a daily driver. First off, there is no such thing as a smoke free start with the 5's ( at least with the EZ on the most aggressive setting). I usually start off in first, unless I'm stopped facing downhill, then I try to bring the rpms up in between shifts, winding out each gear so that no lower than 45 MPH when I hit 5th gear. This helps to control the smoke. If you are stopped at the bottom of a steep hill, you have two choices... 1) try to baby it and slowly build boost in between shifts, which equates to a everlasting wispy 'haze', or 2) hammer down and get to a good boost psi, which equates to short but very thick spouts of coal train smoke.



MC, the lopey sound of a overcammed gasser is only at idle, acceleration is very smooth, throttle response is the same as the 3's. Egt's over the 3's equal about 50-100 degrees hotter for me, where I pull a 17 % grade with the 3's at WOT, the egt's were around 1000 pre turbo, now I see about 1050-1100 on the same run. In fact, I just pulled that grade the other day with about 1200 lbs in the bed, saw 1150 at WOT for the short run to the top. This was with the EZ, the TST was off. As too the EZ, and this is just my perception and maybe incorrect, I don't think that the showerheads and the EZ alone are taxing that VP44 too much. I believe that you are putting a larger strain on the injection pump by trying to reach large numbers with a hot electronic box that taxes the duty cycle of the pumps solenoid with the smaller injectors. Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, just my take. We all know that the EZ box is a very mild fueler, my theory is that the addition of the large injectors with the EZ are much less taxing, that's why I save the TST for recreational purposes only . Bottom line is that I am VERY happy with the power output with just the 5's and the ez as a daily driver, it has satisfied me for over 6 months now and I have no plans for anything other than a NOS kit in my future, again, for play only (actually, I just want one of those cool NOS decals for my back window ). I think you know the answer to your question on the turbo. I'm not sure which one you have (HX35 12 cm ??) but I'm pretty sure that the egt's would be high. If you have the extra $$$, just do it right and put in a larger turbo now, IMHO. Fuel pressure... Make sure that you have no restrictions and good psi's at idle and WOT now, before the install of the showerheads. With mine set at 12 psi's post filter @ idle, I can drag it down to 6 psi's for an instant and then it usually goes back up to 8 psi's, though it has a tendancy to hover around 5-6 psi's with the TST box also on and set on 'KILL'. Keep in mind also that my lift pump is the Mallory 4150, more output than the stock Carter pump so if your using a Carter, you will probably see more of a psi drop at WOT, again, just my opinion but I believe that the Carter is rated at 70 GPH compared to the Mallory's 140 GPH. I'm not sure how much this really comes into play when the OEM fuel filter only flows at 40 GPH (???) and I'm not telling you to swap out to a Mallory, as they (and I) have had failures with this pump as well. If your running a Carter and the psi's are good, try it and if it sucks the psi's down to zero, upgrade it.



Scott W.