Archived Stranded in Utah

[LWells]

I'm in my 2007 5.9 CTD, manual, 90k miles, fwd. sitting in a construction zone the engine light came on then a few seconds later the idle became very rough. As I moved forward truck had no power, rough idle. Oil pressure and engine temp normal. I suspect a fuel problem, perhaps injector, hopefully not pump. I am limping back to the nearest town (Price UT). Any thoughts on cause? Also, is it bad to drive this way? I've got about 20 miles to go, can't go faster than 50mph, and exhaust gas temps are pushing 1400 deg F.

 

[bigceltic]

I'm in my 2007 5.9 CTD, manual, 90k miles, fwd. sitting in a construction zone the engine light came on then a few seconds later the idle became very rough. As I moved forward truck had no power, rough idle. Oil pressure and engine temp normal. I suspect a fuel problem, perhaps injector, hopefully not pump. I am limping back to the nearest town (Price UT). Any thoughts on cause? Also, is it bad to drive this way? I've got about 20 miles to go, can't go faster than 50mph, and exhaust gas temps are pushing 1400 deg F.

I had similar symptoms when I lost an injector a couple of years back. Can you pull the code? When I had my issue I used my Smarty to pull the code and got P2149. Turned out it was Injector 4 went bad.

 

[LWells]

That's the first thing I will do when I limp into Price

 

[LWells]

Just pulled the code, P2149 listed twice. "Injector group supply voltage circuit/open". Also a PO299 turbo underboost which I assume is just a symptom not a cause.

Since the Autozone reader can't give the exact code details, do you know what the service manual says? Was hoping to narrow it down.

You said it was a bad injector even though the code makes it sound like an electrical problem? Thanks

 

[BigPapa]

I found this on P2149:

Steps (1) through (9) have you testing wiring and connectors and say to repair the circuit, something like this:

Step (10) answer NO says to replace the injector harness. Step (12) NO says replace injector, and Step (13) YES says replace injector harness, and finally Step (14) YES says replace ECM. Step (14) NO says refer to intermittent condition.

If you'd like more detail let me know and I'll see what I can post up. It's a long test procedure and I have to take screen shots, can't copy and paste.

 

[LWells]

Thanks Big Papa, that helps. I think that's enough for now. Since I am so far away from home and without a multimeter (or a lot else) I think I'll take it in to the local shop. One odd thing, the code print out pointed at cylinder #2 in a line I hadn't noticed originally.

Thank you Big Celtic too.

 

[BigPapa]

Did it say "CYLINDER 2" or "BANK 2"?

Cylinder #2 is on Bank one, Bank 2 is Cylinders #4, #5, #6.

 

[bigceltic]

Thanks Big Papa, that helps. I think that's enough for now. Since I am so far away from home and without a multimeter (or a lot else) I think I'll take it in to the local shop. One odd thing, the code print out pointed at cylinder #2 in a line I hadn't noticed originally.

Thank you Big Celtic too.

When I took my truck to a diesel shop, they did the recommended tests and identified injector #4 as needing replacement.

I also found this with a google search:

P2149 is for bank 2 injectors being shorted high or low. The injectors are broken up into two banks electrically, bank 2 is the rear 3. Start by removing the valve cover, unplug the injector harness connectors at the cylinder head. Using an ohm meter check across the terminals of each injector one at a time. Each injector should have a resistance of 0-1 ohm. If the resistance is higher than one ohm it will set this code, and that injector needs to be replaced. If the injectors are ok, check each wire running from the injector to the connector on the side of the valve cover one at a time. Here again we are looking for 0-1 ohm. any more, and you need a new injector harness. You have to take combined resistance into consideration too. If an injector is borderline and so is a wire in it's harness, this code will set. If you don't come up with anything on the injectors or wiring it could be between the valve cover and the ECM. Check over that wiring closely. If you still don't see anything it's likely you have an injector that has windings increasing in resistance when they are hot. An injector is by far the most likely cause, followed by the injector wiring harness. Remember that this fuel system is fully self bleeding, opening a fuel line while the engine is running or cranking isn't necessary, and is very dangerous. The fuel is under enough pressure to penetrate your skin. Read more: 03..code P2149 fuel injector grp b supply voltage circuit/open - JustAnswer http://www.justanswer.com/dodge/446...upply-voltage-circuit-open.html#ixzz25CMCl7Zw

 

[Missouri Mule]

1400 is high for 50 mph. Turbo mite not pushing to much air. Could definitely be because of injector harnes. injector valve (stuck open/closed. What was the fuel doing? Staying steady or going down fast?

 

[LWells]

Great info guys, thanks again. The printout sad cylinder 2, but it also said "bank ?B?" I suspect the generic reader may have confused cylinder 2 with bank 2.

Based on the info you sent I am suspicious it is the harness. Primarily because about two years ago I had the same code thrown and it ran bad for about a mile then was just fine. When I arrived home I pulled the valve cover and inspected the wiring. I didn't ohm out anything and there was no visible problems. I never had any more codes or symptoms but perhaps I had a wire pinched.

 

[LWells]

Bill
Yes 1400 is definitely higher than usual for this truck. Fuel seemed fine, didn't notice the gauge dropping. I checked the oil midway and couldn't see any signs of fuel. Also exhaust visually seemed normal.

 

[LWells]

Ok - local shop says it is #4 injector bad - reading 10 ohms. I knew injectors we're expensive but wow! A re manufactured Cummings was $468, a new aftermarket (don't know who's) was $378, and a new Cummings was $6xx (lost consciousness and missed the last didgits). As with all shops I assume this is a premium over their cost. So for future reference, when I get home and think about the other 5 injectors what have you all typically paid? I really am not inclined to replace the rest at 90k miles - opinions? Btw, I went with the ranufactured Cummings since it was the only one in town today, other choices would have been shipped in tomorrow.

 

[bigceltic]

Dang. My #4 went at around 113k. Get new from here http://www.tcdiesel.com/Pages/DodgeInjectorPricing.aspx in my case I went all new BBi injectors (I went with Stage 1, but now they have Stage 0.5 http://www.smartyresource.com/bbiinjectorset-my045stage05.aspx). Very pricey (I got mine overnighted from Source Automotive: http://sourceautomotive.biz/bbi-injectorset-stage1-1.aspx) but from all accounts very good injectors. Make sure if you just replace the one, get the shop to give you the old one so you can get the core return.

 

[BigPapa]

You'll be fine with the Cummins reman. That's what we use in our buses and I don't recall having to replace any reman replacements.

 

[sag2]

Hopefully they diagnosed it correctly and it isn't the harness. The injectors usually don't fail electrically, but they do. If they had disconnected the wires when they checked the resistance then they are right.

 

[Killer223]

600$??? damn autozone has NEW injectors for 5?? some thing. http://www.autozone.com/fuel-delivery/fuel-injector/bosch-fuel-injector/594577_88678_5560
and remand ones for around $360. now you know what it is, you could almost buy the tools and swap it your self.
food for thought.

 

[TJJEEPER]

Any Updates?

 

[cerberusiam]

A re manufactured Cummings was $468, a new aftermarket (don't know who's) was $378, and a new Cummings was $6xx (lost consciousness and missed the last didgits). I really am not inclined to replace the rest at 90k miles - opinions?

They sure did not cut you any slack on price of the parts. Probably could have taken a cab to a Bosch Certified shop and gotten a better deal on a reman that pay their premium but sometimes that is what you can do. Cummins doesn't make new or reman injectors, Bosch is the only one that makes these CR injectors. A "new aftermarket" is not real, it is likely a reman or something else completely. At that price it was probably a Bosch Marine injector. MSRP on a CR injector was a $1079 a while ago so even the $6xx is in the wholesale stream. A NEW Bosh OE comparable injector for a 07 5.9 is around $430 at just about any place that sells a volume of parts. Bosch reman injectors are an option if you can buy them at the right price but for $100 difference it isn't worth the hassle or potential problems. Not impressed at all with the QC and on remans though, they are all over the board for balance and longevity. The 06-07's has bad batches of injector solenoids due to manufacturing defects so it may have just been 1 unlucky unit. Given it was a solenoid failure the question then becomes if it was a defect or contamination that may be affecting the others. You had one type of failure where it put the engine into limp mode, a physical failure doesn't show to the ECM and usually will result in melted pistons and\or a crank case full of diesel until something lets go. Depends on how far you want to chase the efficiency and longevity on the engine.

600$??? damn autozone has NEW injectors for 5?? some thing. http://www.autozone.com/fuel-delivery/fuel-injector/bosch-fuel-injector/594577_88678_5560

By the numbers, that is a 10 year old injector lacking a lot of updates. I would question it being new, why it is till around new after 10+ years, and definitely not at that price given its questionable pedigree. You can get brand new balanced injectors that much better than stock Bosch for that money, no reason to pay these prices for less quality.

 

[LWells]

Thanks again everyone - made it home, truck is running well. Appreciate the injector recommendation bigceltic, and thanks for the assurance on the re-mans BigPapa.




Sag2 - yes, they did measure injector separately. Here are a couple interesting things for you all. The way that #4 injector failed somehow took the rest of the bank - injector 5 and 6 - off line (like it was wired in series - I've got to see just why it works this way). The mechanic was able to bypass injector 4 and the truck ran a lot better - amazing that 5 cylinders beats 3 cylinders any day! But this also explains why I thought it might be the harness or the pump because I couldn't believe one injector would be so crippling - now I am really glad I only had to drive about 25 miles - still might not have been a good idea. The other interesting thing is the re-manufactured injector was not reassembled quite right. It was a just a few degrees off in clocking of the terminals relative to the bolt holes. Since the wiring harness has almost no slack this meant the wires could not be attached to the injector terminals without moving one wire out of the plastic "cradle" or fingers that surround three sides of each terminal end (if it had been off any more the wire would not have reached at all). This means I have one injector wire free floating on the side of the plastic fingers - a little close to the exhaust rocker. So I am worried this could cause an early stress failure. I'll have o keep an eye on it. The mechanics said they've seen re-manufactured units with this kind of problem before. It was close, but there just isn't tolerance for close in this case. Thanks again everyone for all the quick responses, it really helped to have confidence in the diagnosis.

 

[LWells]

Killer - yeah, I had Autozone pull up the part and they listed at $399 - not sure whose, and you're right - will do it myself if I decide to preempt any future failures.

Cerb - thanks for the injector background (what does CR stand for?). Is "limp mode" a specific state the engine will default to or are you using that term casually? Kind of amazing that a "wearing" part can be designed so expensively, especially at 6 units per. I know the machining tolerances must be astronomical on these, but they are making them in high volume and at that price you'd think the coil would last a little longer. Very interesting that there is a known bad batch out there. Pretty scary to think of the mechanical failure. How could a contamination potentially cause the coil to fail?

For those interested, I'm going to try and get around to opening a new thread in the normal forums about the Delvac/ATF4 manual transmission fluid experiment I happened to be running on this trip.