Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Strange power loss (#2)

[rlightner]

Hi folks - I'm MRS. rlightner. I'll be doing most of the posts for my husband now , since as he puts it - "his hands are usually covered in grease and it takes him forever to hunt and peck something out". I know this is going to be long, so please bear with me. Also, I (we) don't understand these "codes" you all use - I've figured out a few of them - like FF fuel filter and LP lift pump. I've always helped work on our gas powered trucks & don't have a problem getting my hands dirty (altho I do believe in washing them before I touch the comp. keyboard!). Now with that said & done, here we go.



Oh yeah, thanks for all the input on Strange Power Loss (#1). We put metal tape around ground wire from the turbo, seems to have taken care of the "hunt" problem, now if we can just figure out the "no power" thing.



Quick review. Basically truck has no power without Edge chip. Will sit and idle fine, even go along fine at say 10mph. Romp on it and get basically no oomph at all. Plug Edge back in and get a drastic improvement, still maybe a little slugish tho. Only way it's driveable is with the Edge. Truck has not hardly been driven, except for test drives, since problems started (see original post Stange Power Loss). Didn't want to possibly create other problems while trying to figure out this one.



Here's what we've done to truck so far.



**New Edge chip is still disconnected while we're trying to get this worked out. **



07/18/08 (Fri. )

*Replaced MAP sensor (ordered from HoesliDiesel) because of code P0327.

Started truck, still showed code, still no power, disconnected both batteries and left it for night. Should we have had the code cleared before we started it? Don't have a way to do it ourselves, would have to take about 3 miles away to Advance Auto.



07/19/09 (Sat. )

*Checked connections that we knew about for moisture and corrosion. All ok.

*Checked fuel relay - ok.

*Had already replaced lift pump with new version of OEM one in Feb or March (replaced fuel filter at same time), so did the quick fuel output test this morn. , easily filled a half gal. jug in 20-25 seconds. Best I can understand, that means lift pump is ok right?

*Took fuel filter off & checked it just to be sure. Nice and clean.



Okay - what now? We're willing to try various things this weekend before we have to take it to the Dodge dealer Monday (#@$%! - they are ridiculously expensive), but we don't have all those pressure gauges, meters, and stuff we see mentioned in the posts. Also, since we're new to the diesel world, we don't always know where some of the stuff you talk about is even located. So thanks for "keeping it simple" while we're learning.



Rhondia

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Welcome to TDR!!!

How blessed is your husband that you like to get your hands dirty! You go girl!
Very strange problem indeed. Don't have an easy diagnosis for you.

First things first.

1. You need a fuel pressure gauge mounted permanently in the truck tapping the fuel supply line just before it goes into the VP44 injection pump. The test you ran does not indicate what pressure will be under real situations, ie, idle, wot, cruising. Only the gauge can tell you these things. About $100 from Geno's Garage, less than what you will pay Dodge and way more accurate!

2. What fuel pump is on the truck? On the side of the engine in original location or in the fuel tank?

3. Do not take the truck to Dodge, especially for fuel pressure tests. They follow corporate orders and do not know what they are doing in this area.

4. Yes, have the codes read with a code reader as not all codes show up in the "key on - key off" process. Once you get a list of all codes then have them cleared. Tell us what the codes are.

How many miles on truck?

This will be a start.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[rlightner]

Hi - thanks for the reply.



The fuel pump that's on the truck is on the side of the engine - original location. It's an Airtex which we understand used to be Carter; and it's the new version - horizontal instead of vertical. We got it from Advanced Auto and the fellow there actually called and talked to Airtex about the pumps. They had Advance send back all the old style pumps they had in stock and they replaced them with this new style. They said they had worked out all the old bugs and this one wasn't supposed to fail.



We did have the codes read since you can't get codes on a '99 with they key on/off thing. The only code it showed was P0237 (not 0327 like I said above). That is why we ordered a new map sensor and installed it yesterday. The check engine light still came on and stayed on when we started the engine, that's why we left the batteries disconnected over night. Ck Light still came on/stayed on when we hooked the batteries back up and started it this morning. Should we take it and have the code(s) read again? then cleared?



The truck has 111,000 mls.



Thanks,

Rhondia & Randy

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

R & R,

1. "this one wasn't supposed to fail. " It will. Sometime. Because it is mounted on the engine and has to suck too far. Thus the need for a fuel pressure gauge. That and knowing when the filter needs changed.

2. Yep, have the codes read again. And then cleared again.

3. Sometimes the electronic thingy's on this truck will fail but not give a code. My first VP44 that went bad didn't. Nor did my MAP sensor. Nor the APPS (accelerator pedal position sensor).

Let us know what you find out this time.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[rlightner]

Okay, not intentionally being dumb here, but what exactly is this VP44? We've seen it mentioned in other posts. Where is it, what does it do, and do I need to be sitting down when I get the price?



Thanks,

Rhondia

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Rhondia,

There are NO stupid questions here!

The VP44 is the fuel injection pump used from 1998. 5 through 2002. It is electronically controlled by the ECM (engine control module) which reads various sensors including the MAP (manifold absolute pressure, commonly called "boost" sensor) and adjusts fuel rate and timing. The VP44 is lubricated and cooled only by the fuel flowing through it, thus the need for the fuel pressure gauge. Anything less than 5 psi is considered unacceptable. The early VP44's had a manufacturing defect and many died suddenly when a fueling box like your Edge was installed. Later versions of the VP44 had this corrected as well as those replacement parts now built for rebuilding the VP44. The pump is capable of very good street power and excellent economy but does not have a reputation for longevity. I just installed my 2nd VP44 on my truck and the previous owner (PO) had also put one on. But, this truck also has 666,000 miles. This last pump went 262,000 miles and the rebuilder said that is the farthest he as heard of one going. And yes, the VP is not cheap, about $1100.

I am not convinced the VP44 is your problem.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Rhondia,

Just curious here because I don't know anything about how Edge works. When you say you have "disconnected" the Edge while trying to figure this problem out does that mean the entire Edge harness has been removed, or just part of it? If you have not tried unplugging the entire Edge harness and reconnecting the factory harness I would do that and see what happens. Grasping here...

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[Joe Mc]

Trent - I was thinking similarly.



Rhondia - If the Edge is unplugged you will get a code. The MAP plugs into the Edge, then the stock MAP plug plugs into Edge as well. So, if Edge is unplugged in the cab and you haven't removed the MAP to Edge/Edge to MAP plugs and reconnected the stock plug to MAP - you'll throw codes. Simplest thing to do is leave Edge connected but turn off the power to it. I'm not sure what Edge product you guys have so I'm assuming it's an Edge Comp?



Also, I had removed my Edge once and experienced a thrown code "Check Engine" light (CEL) and as I drove it before plugging back in it had no power would only "limp" a. k. a "limp mode". So the low power you guys are experiencing "may" be just that the truck is in limp mode. This limp mode gives just enough go to get home, hence limp. Now, once the problem is taken care of the truck goes out of limp mode = nothing special required to get out of limp mode = the CEL usually will remain on until code is cleared though.



Another thought, did you guys check all the hoses from turbo outlet to cooler, from cooler to airhorne (thingy on the driverside of engine with black tube coming from air cooler with big hose and clamps). If one of them split or blew the clamp you could be "low power" related to boost.



By the way your truck is pretty much same as mine. One of the first things I did when I got mine (@ 75k - now @ 177k) was to get the Dodge Shop Manual, $100 - it has been very helpful - "almost" as good as TDR. The very next thing I did was get an "A" pillar gauge tri-pod, filled it with the most important gages for our trucks - IMHO (= in my humble opinion) Fuel psi, Trans temp, and a combo gage for Boost & EGT (exhaust gas temp).



These gages are invaluable to help monitor things that are real expensive to replace/repair I. E. :

Fuel psi gage - supply fuel pressure to VP44 - $1,100 - 1,500,

Trans temp - sky is the limit for a rebuild you can start out with a decent trans rebuild for around $3-4k

EGT - if things get too hot you could damage the engine - $4,500 - 5,000.



So, get your hubby some gauges - the $500 +/- I spent on the Westachs from Geno's were great for my needs and wants = not over the top $$$ wise, effective and similar in appearance to stock. see picture below.



the $$$ you spend for gages will pay for itself the first time you see something and shut down prior to breakdown.



#ad




Keep us posted on what you guys find out.

 

[rlightner]

Hi guys - thanks for keeping things so simple for us.



Edge chip. The one we got is the Edge EZ Module for 98. 5-02 dodge cummins. It says that it was designed for the Dodge 5. 9 Cummins. It has 3 levels of boost. Level 1 60hp, 160 torque; Level 2 63hp, 170 torque; Level 3 65hp, 180 torque. It came set to the default level 3, and that is where we left it. The dealer we bought it from installed it for us. It is mounted under the hood on top of the underhood fuse box; that is where the chip that was on the truck when we got it was mounted. When I say that it is disconnected - I mean that the we have unplugged the connection that goes into the end of the Edge. The way we understand it without calling Edge and asking (they're not there on weekends), is that if the harness is unplugged from the Edge, then the truck is supposed to run as stock. I'm going to call Edge in the a. m. and ask for certain.



We took the truck to Advance Auto earlier today to get the codes read & cleared. Randy had to plug the Edge back in to get enough power to get there, I followed in another vehicle "just in case". He said truck ran good all the way there. He unplugged the Edge for them to run the codes. Here's what they got. P0237 & P1689. They cleared the codes, Randy left the Edge unplugged, and drove the truck around the block. The CEL came right back on, so they ran the codes again - same ones P0237 and P1689. They cleared the codes again. He plugged the Edge back in to get back to where we store our equipment (CEL came on as soon as he started truck), he said truck ran fine again on the way back, but he still unplugged Edge when we got there.



Don't understand the P0237 since we've already replaced the MAP sensor.



Advance's code reader said that P1689 was "manufacturer control, auxiliary inputs, auxiliary outputs". To me that sounds like something is sending signal that something else can't read, or maybe vise versa - something is trying to read a signal the isn't being sent. Am I anywhere close?



Randy checked the hoses that Trent suggested. He says they looked pretty good, no missing clamps. He showed me where there looks like there might be a little dry rot developing on the one that goes from the cooler to the airhorne. He checked it out pretty good and didn't seem to think that the little crack was more than just a surface thing.



I mentioned in our first post Strange Power Loss (#1) a week or so ago that Randy had pressure washed the engine. Someone replied that that could create problem. Randy has tried checking connections for moisture and didn't find any. Are there any other connections he should check or recheck? Anything he should clean - we got a can of electrical cleaner and some dielectric grease.



Thanks so much for all your help. Even the guys at Advance are impressed with the concern and caring help you all are trying to provide.



Rhondia

 

[RSimmons]

Don't unplug the harness at the EZ module as that will have the same effect as unplugging the MAP sensor. Just disconnect the Edge data link connector. This should be located on the truck main wire harness in the area below the fuel filter. I'd clear the codes again and go for a spin.



The EZ module only connects to the truck in 2 places. The MAP sensor and the data link connector. The truck harness MAP sensor connector then plugs into the EZ harness. Basically , 3 connectors, 2 of which are to the truck.



With the MAP sensor unplugged (or the harness at the EZ module) the truck can't read any changes in manifold pressure and will not fuel.



The 1689 code is specific to the dodge (manufacturer specific)... It is a communication buss failure. ie; the ECM failed to communicate with the VP44 injection pump control module. I had this same code caused by a failed Edge EZ.

 

[rlightner]

Many, many thanks. We will try that tomorrow afternoon after we finish servicing our maintenance contracts. Will let you all know the results.



Rhondia

 

[rlightner]

Hi to all,



Just had the chance to take truck to Advance for them to clear the codes. Randy completely disconnected the Edge & put the truck back to stock in the parking lot before the fellow ran the codes (still the same 2). He then cleared the codes, Randy started the engine and TA-DA, no CEL. We've been driving the truck now for almost 30 minutes still as stock, still no CEL.



We're a little confused as to how this Edge was connected as compared to how RSimmons said it should be.



Our Edge had one connection going to the front of the engine plugged into a triangle shaped connector in a large harness. The other connection went to the MAP sensor with a "pigtail" offshoot to plug into the old MAP sensor harness. Hope I'm explaining this right.



Questions --

1. Does everyone think that maybe our problem is solved?

2. Is it ok to hook the Edge back up? The extra hp sure was nice and the fuel mileage increase was REALLY nice.

3. Do you all thing the Edge was installed correctly?

4. If it was installed correctly, where should we disconnect it if we ever get another CEL and need to have the codes ran?



Can't thank everyone enough. I'll keep you updated.



Rhondia

 

[SnoKing]

The map sensor wires route thru the Edge EZ and back to the ECU. That is why unplugging the EZ from its harness screwed things up. ECU could not see the map sensor, as the route thru the EZ was missing. If the truck is running good now, try the Edge EZ again. If you see I nice little improvement in performance without other issues, then it is working correctly. SNOKING

 

[Joe Mc]

Do you have the installation instructions that came with the Edge EZ? If so check the install. If not call Edge and ask if they could fax install instructions sheet to you. They may have it on their site, but may not?

It seems as if the Edge may not have been connected right by the installer (no offense - it could happen). Since the truck threw codes when it was connected and doesn't now that "everything EDGE" is not in circuit???

Also, EDGE box could be a defective from the get go?

 

[rlightner]

Hi all,



Thought I'd put a close on this story.



Well, we COMPLETELY undid the Edge, took the truck to Advance and had them clear the codes, then reconnected the Edge. Started truck - NO CODES & PLENTY OF POWER. 2 very happy people especially since we had just lost the transmission out of our 96 Dodge and it was in the shop for a rebuild. The next day comes and we just finished work at one of our jobsites and was heading home, not in a very happy mood because we had just gotten a call about the 96, what was really the matter with the transmission, and what it was going to cost- when lo and behold the Cummins just flat died! Luckily we were right in front of a business with a parking lot my husband could let the truck coast in to. Well this typical female burst into tears to my husbands amazement, since I usually take things fairly well in stride. I explained through the tears that I had just read about it on TDR and it had to be the VP44. Calmed down and call Advance since they were just right down the road, They sent out a person with a code reader and sure enough - the "death code" popped up. The Advance person knew of a good diesel person and got us the number. Come to find out, it wasn't just a diesel person, it was an authorized Cummins service center - Don's Truck Repair in Surgoinsville, TN. , and his wife is the VP of our local TDR chapter. Had the truck towed to him, he did a fantastic job at a reasonable price. Had him put an "idiot light" on it, too. Truck is running great now, good fuel mileage, too. Word of advice - DO NOT take you truck to your local dealer for a VP44 - ours wanted $2200. 00 just for the pump alone plus labor!



Well, thanks again to everyone for their patience and advice. Got to finish up here - we're on our way to our local TDR chapter's "Diesel Drags". No we're not going to compete. Just visit with everyone for a bit and show off our brand new 2008 STERLING 4500 with it's 6. 7 CUMMINS!



Take care,

Rhondia