Surprising result worth noting (Turbo Air Guide)

[rbattelle]

I do believe this TAG has great potential, but I must confess some skepticism with resepect to enormous performance enhancement. I would expect the unit to improve efficiency slightly. We must ask ourselves, what does an increase in efficiency buy us? Well, probably a little quicker spool times and slightly higher pressure ratios.



I must confess skepticism with badams1's extraordinary increase in "seat of the pants" performance with the unit installed. It just doesn't jive with what I know about centrifugal compressor characteristics. The other question is, why would a device which improves efficiency decrease the pressure ratio at highway speeds? For two compressors with the same turbine power input and same corrected flow rate, I expect the one with higher efficiency to develop slightly higher pressure.

 

[Car_nut57]

rbattelle,



The thing we need to remember when looking at something like the TAG is cause and effect. If we make the turbo more efficient then it effects engine by changing exhaust back pressure, volume of intake air, air/fuel and the changes the computer makes because of the TAG.



One thing that does seem to be a common experience with the TAG is the reduction in boost pressures under like highway conditions, ie: same stretch of road, same conditions, but several psi less boost pressure and less throttle position. One explanation for this might simply be the air being directed into the turbo which moves more air in with less back pressure on the turbine. Another interesting thing one of the guys testing told me last night is that his truck has a higher max boost pressure with the TAG installed than without it.

 

[rbattelle]

Car_nut,

Certainly I would expect a higher maximum boost pressure. And I would also expect lower boost pressure if your throttle position is lower (less fueling). Perhaps now some of this makes sense. I had been assuming people were experiencing lower boost pressure at the same throttle setting. What you've suggested now is that people require less throttle to maintain the same speed. This is consistent with an improvement in compressor efficiency (improving efficiency generally improves specific fuel consumption).



I don't think this would have any effect on turbine backpressure, unless you're defining backpressure differently than me. To me, the backpressure is effected by the exhaust piping downstream of the turbine, and the compressor wouldn't have much effect on that.



Ryan

 

[Car_nut57]

rbattelle,



When I say exhaust back pressure I am usually speaking of the pressure upstream of the turbine wheel which is the amount of pressure that is needed to cause the turbine to spin to produce a given amount of boost. During the testing of the TAG we have been mapping boost pressures verses exhaust back pressure against the turbine. The closer these two pressures are to each other at various boost conditions is one indication that the TAG is making a change in turbo efficiency and engine operation.

 

[CATCRACKER]

not to knock anyones produce but there is no way i want my turbo to be more quiet! the post about it waking the motor up?? not to dispute anyone but let see some dyno numbers!! let some of our members try it out.

 

[MUDDY]

i too wld be interested in seein if the revised tag would be an improvement over the tag dynoed april 12

 

[Car_nut57]

Be patient guys. We have sent the new TAGs out to a few who are going to dyno and as soon as they have information to share, we will pass it on.

 

[Duck]

Originally posted by Car_nut57

No problem at all give me a call or just send me back the old style and I will be happy to send you the new one. Keep in mind you will need to reinstall your silencer ring in the factory position to use the new TAG.

Thanks! I'll box it up and send it off tomorrow. How's that for customer service, guys?



As most know by now, I'm a big fan of the TAG. Both in theory and execution.

1) It just makes sense to me. Laminar air should = increased efficiency.

2) It can't hurt. I takes "stock" principles and exaggerates them.

3) My truck, with my config and the seat of my pants, definitely spools faster- especially with load in the mountains



My foot's pretty heavy, so I can't say I've really noticed a mileage gain or anything. I do miss the turbo whine, but I think a ram air box will solve that.



I've never even laid eyes on a dyno, but I'm not sure a dyno can report on how fast a turbo spools... ? Or how "quicker" it responds at elevation with load... ?



I'm just putting my $. 02 in again. All the theory and behavior of gas has been covered in another thread.

 

[drrhoades]

12 Valve

If the TAG makes the turbo spool quicker then it would be an improvement on any Cummins engine including a 12 valve, right? Has anyone tested this on a 12 valve engine, if so what were the results. If not I would be interested.



Doug

 

[Car_nut57]

Doug,



Haven't had a chance to try one on a 12 valve yet, but it should work on the 12 valve as well.

 

[Vaughn MacKenzie]

Dave, another thought is to do some intake air temp measurements to see if those drop when the TAG is installed. I have a small K-type thermocouple probe that I'm willing to drill into the intake manifold horn for so we can do some comparisons.



I'll be by around 4:45 this evening. . .



Vaughn

 

[Car_nut57]

Vaughn,



That sounds like a good idea to me. I have your TAG here ready to install.

 

[Duck]

NEW TAG - Initial Impressions

I installed the new TAG over the weekend. The new design sets the TAG 1" further back than the old version did, and provides "laminar-like" (that's for you JHardwick ) air over the entire inlet.



Going from no silencer to the old TAG was a "wow". Going from no silencer to the new TAG is a "WOW". Turbo feels like it spools even "quicker" than the last TAG. Feels like it pulls harder, faster from 3rd gear on up too.



This is all city driving. I'll be pulling a load up to the mountains and back this weekend and will report on that.



Car_nut, have you done any testing with leaving the silencer ring completely out and just have the TAG in there?

 

[Car_nut57]

Duck,



Yes, we have done some testing with the new TAG and no silencer ring. it works much better with the silencer ring installed as it comes from the factory. So far those who have tried both the small TAG and this new one have commented that the new one performs much better than the little one and is much smoother. Thank you for the feed back on the TAG performance.

 

[rbattelle]

Car_nut,



I think you've got a hell of a product now. Glad to hear you've moved it a bit upstream.



Any chance of trying a TAG that sits where the baffles (for lack of a better term) are now?



Ryan

 

[Car_nut57]

rbattelle,



We want to keep the TAG material so that its flow is directed straight into the compressor wheel and at a distance that allow the air flow to recombine after it passes through the honeycomb. This latest version seems to be very good and we are hearing positive results from all the testers so far even on the earlier 24V Cummins. That doesn't mean we are not still trying different configurations and ideas as I am always looking for improvement.

 

[Duck]

I wouldn't be surprised if this new TAG makes a difference on the dyno. It seems to pull noticeably harder, faster, smoother.



The jury is still out on this, but it seems like it has more of a growl to it (more or faster torque production?) when I'm putting my foot in it from 3rd on up. Also, it seems like the turbo whine came back a bit (a "good thing").



Overall, I'm all

 

[hammersley]

Another Tornado?????

is this anything like this??????http://ricksdistribution.com/tornado.html

 

[Car_nut57]

Re: Another Tornado?????

Originally posted by hammersley

is this anything like this??????http://ricksdistribution.com/tornado.html

These are two completely different ideas. The tornado is intended to swirl the intake air and make it turbulent. The Turbo Air Guide (TAG) creates smooth laminar flow directed into the compressor wheel of the turbo. Smooth air flow helps to make the turbo more efficient by eliminating the turbulence and reduce drag on the compressor wheel so more air enters the wheel easier. Since the compressor wheel has less drag it takes less exhaust pressure on the turbine to get the same or more air into the the engine.



We have some more information about this and diagrams about what the TAG does on our information page http://www.dieselpowerproducts.com/tag

 

[ReevesRacing]

Whose going to put this thing on the dyno??

I want to see some numbers... sounds great.