Suspension upgrades

[Genros]

Hey all,



Im looking to upgrade my suspension. Ive checked otu KORE is there other competative compnaies i should look into it. Id love to be able to buy the stuff in pieces so as to save my life from the wife but if i have to seperate with the dough i will. ANy advice will be welcomed

 

[JCrockett]

If you have ckecked out KORE, then you need look no futher

Do your truck a favor and buy a KORE system it will be the best money you will ever spend on it. The handling is Awesome!

Just my . 02

 

[VKeller]

Try Sage at Carli Suspension in Orange California. He was an integral part of Kore Off Road but struck out on his own. He has incredible support from King shocks as well as Deaver springs. He is a perfectionist and is well recognized in the suspension world for his inteligence and attention to detail. He is a good guy an will be very competetive $ as these are not cheapy systems. 714-273-0278

 

[JOblenes]

You should check out the offering from Lorenz Industries www.lorenzindustries.com. Not too long ago Kore was on here trying to “break into the TDR market” by offering heavily discounted components. If you follow some of the threads from earlier in the year you will see that Kore’s prices have increased… substantially. Lorenz Industries is in the same place Kore was a few months ago and I think the system they are offering is a steal of a deal. The components he is using are also top notch. The shocks are from Sway-a-way and in my opinion after researching the two I have come to the conclusion that there is, in fact, very little practical difference between the Kore products (Fox really) and Lorenz’ products (Sway a way) in terms of design and construction. Both shock can be had in same diameter, remote reservoir, both are made using mostly identical material and construction, identical rod ends, etc. Sort of like comparing Yamaha’s top racing bike with Honda’s top racing bike, they are both well refined excellent performing bikes with almost no difference in performance. You are just getting a super break on the price with Lorenz because he is “breaking into the market”. There was one thread where some people expressed concerns about the quality of the towers, but I don’t think you will have to worry. Sean has got his bases covered, I know because I have been looking closely at his designs, expect a post about this next week.



You will get a lot of feedback from the Kore fans about the “experience” that goes into the Kore stuff and people will try and convince you that there is some “voodoo balck magic” to shock valving and spring selection that makes the Kore product worth it. Its funny that it works here on a truck forum, if this were an MX forum, ATV forum, car racing forum everybody would call BS on this. The stock shock on my ATV is fully adjustable for spring pre-load and damping and I love playing with them to see what gives me the best ride for my rig… outfitted with my gear… driving on the type of trails I have in my neck of the woods. And this is Lorenz’s philosophy for our trucks, he wants to blow the lid off of the black magic for the dodge application, but his competitors still want to profit from it. I for one love his attitude and can’t wait to play with the shocks on the truck, just like I tinker with the rest of it. Here is an example of how the motorcycle crowd discusses these things openly http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_9612_tech/



And yes, you can buy his kit piece by piece.

 

[Regcabguy]

I too feel Lorenz Industries is a viable option. I obtained at a fair price a set of mini-paks which a friend w/an 05 who purchased the KORE leveling kit needed to complete his truck. I can say he is quite satisfied with the product. I have ridden in Sean's truck which is similarly laden(popup camper) and can vouch for the stability and ride integrity of his offerings. He's a decent,knowledgable guy trying to offer another product to enhance a great platform from Dodge.

 

[BrentKaiser]

Skyjacker also offers the D-25 springs that are supposed to level our trucks out. I am not sure how well they perform though. I myself am partial to Sean's setup also. Good luck on your choices.

 

[Genros]

I checked out lorenz website it didnt seem to specify to much like the kore site and i also didnt happen upon a phone number? Anyone a phone number please? id like to talk to him asap

 

[JOblenes]

Lorenz is takin care of business

Here is just a sneak peak at some of the stuff Lorenz is up to. While it is true that Lorenz Industries doesn't have a long history, after all they are just new to the market, but that doesn't mean they can't jump ahead of the competition by working smart. Lorenz is making all of the right moves to bring you a product that is the best it can be. One of the tools they are using is stress analysis simulation to analyze their parts to make sure they will deliver the performance you expect for your hard earned money. Try their e-mail, they will get back to you.

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

The shocks are from Sway-a-way and in my opinion after researching the two I have come to the conclusion that there is, in fact, very little practical difference between the Kore products (Fox really) and Lorenz’ products (Sway a way) in terms of design and construction. Both shock can be had in same diameter, remote reservoir, both are made using mostly identical material and construction, identical rod ends, etc.

I just happened to do a little research myself. Here are a few facts about the differences between the two shock manufacturers.



If Sway away were better, don't you think KORE would be using them too?





Fox - 17-4 stainless shafts

SAW - plated steel



Fox - U. S. made Aurora Heims

SAW - Chinese



Fox - Body is Cadmium plated

SAW - high nickel - rust bucket - be sure to clear coat them.



Fox - seal compound came from snow-mobile tech

SAW - old-school Viton and urethane - oil leaks out as temp drops (beware if you buy these and live in a cold climate)



In order to fit the Sway away shocks in to tight places they ignore primary rules of hydraulics- Like Piston Overlap- That's why they're known for leaking and require maintenance on seal failures.



That is another reason KORE quit using the KING shocks. Bad seal carriers. King race shocks are a pretty good shock. You see them on all kinds of Trophy Trucks and 1 cars. I haven't seen SAW shocks on many race cars. Maybe a few dune buggies and such. They are fine for the weekend warrior but will not hold up to the abuse we can dish out.....



I have asked for systems from both Sage and Sean. To no avail!!!! I know everyone will say that I am in tight with KORE. I sell KORE products and have offered to sell stuff for Carli and Lornez. I feel that I should cover all of my bases and be able to offer customers the best value for the buck. But performance has to be proven to me, by me, and the tests are still unavailable. Bring it on!!! I will install the stuff myself and go bash! We'll see what holds up and what doesn't!!! Let the cards lie where they fall... .



Greg DRC

 

[JOblenes]

I just happened to do a little research myself. Here are a few facts about the differences between the two shock manufacturers.



If Sway away were better, don't you think KORE would be using them too?





Fox - 17-4 stainless shafts

SAW - plated steel



Fox - U. S. made Aurora Heims

SAW - Chinese



Fox - Body is Cadmium plated

SAW - high nickel - rust bucket - be sure to clear coat them.



Fox - seal compound came from snow-mobile tech

SAW - old-school Viton and urethane - oil leaks out as temp drops (beware if you buy these and live in a cold climate)



In order to fit the Sway away shocks in to tight places they ignore primary rules of hydraulics- Like Piston Overlap- That's why they're known for leaking and require maintenance on seal failures.

Greg DRC

Dude, take it easy. I didn't say, or even imply for that matter, that one product was better than the other. All I was saying is that from everything I looked at I thought they were quite comparable, and I still stand by that.



Fox 17-4, this is some great metal, gets used in lots of aggressive applications where strength and corrosion resistance are needed along with good weldability, but it all depends on the design approach that the manufacturer (in this case Swayaway) takes. 17-4 also has pretty poor hardness 33-40 Rockwell C for most hardness conditions (see www.matweb.com), where most chrome platings on steels go 60-70 Rockwell C and as a result will resist scratching of the shaft better. The shocks on my mountain bike were nitrided (even harder than chrome typically) and they are well scratched from the mud and won't hold the best seal any more. So you see it is really a matter of trade offs, like most things are, including Desert racing a diesel truck.



Heim joints, I was referring to the specific design, i. e. teflon lined, I wasn't able to confirm their country of manufacture, but no problem just because they are from China doesn't mean they are crap. Heck a lot, and I mean a lot, of the 17-4 steel comes from China to begin with.



Cadmium plating is also pretty darned good stuff, poisonous and being phased out in most industrial applications, but it is a great anti-corrosion protection, one of the best, used on bolts lots too because of its fairly high natural lubricity. But your statement about nickel being a rust bucket, in this case, is total, complete, utter BS (I don't like to be mean spirited, but your description was pretty no-holds-barred as well). From what I have learned they are using electroless nickel, here is a link that you and other TDR members can read http://www.corrosion-doctors.org/MetalCoatings/Electroless.htm They use words like "exceptional corrosion resistance" "High Wear Resistance", no mention of "rust bucket". I will look for some ASTM test data, but I will hazard a guess that EN gets a 9 out of ten in the standard saline water baths, while Cadmium gets maybe a 9. 2 out of ten comparatively. You were likely remembering the old school nickel plating stuff that flaked off, that stuff was/is junk.



As to the seals I will definitely watch out for this as I live in Canada and it is pretty friggin' cold up here right now, but again I am willing to take the chance that the problems you are referring to are probably quite minor, if they exist at all on a regular basis. Does the oil leak out catastrophically or only a drop or two here and there, does it immediately render the shock useless causing me to crash my truck or will I just eventually have to "top them up" like I do when I service my mountain bike shocks every season. Just trying to get a perspective one how big a problem I might have. If they use snowmobile compunds which would presumably be optimized for freezing temperatures, how do they handle the heat in desert racing?



Like most designs I suspect that Swayaway make choices that are compromises between a whole bunch of parameters and they have decided that they will go with a shorter overall package and perhaps this might mean compromising on the hydraulics, though I doubt they "ignored the primary rules". You make it sound like they won't actually work. I spent over 1/2 hour on the phone talking with the engineers at Swayaway and I think they are a pretty knowledgeable bunch of fellows really, more than willing to discuss the technical stuff if you ask them. I will be sure to follow up on this with them since I am getting a pair of these shocks.



Again I believe that there are some pretty good components out there from the various vendors and everyone has their small twist, but in the end it is mostly splitting hairs. Again to use my motorcycle analogy no matter which bike you buy Kawi', Suzuk', Honda, Yamaha, you are getting a pretty kick butt machine that, given equally competent drivers, will perform within a hair of each other (they are all Asian made to boot). Then you get a bike like Ducati, which has some very diffrent design features (V-twin with rotary valves vs. 4 cylinders standard valves) but the real world performance gap is small to non-existant. That is the point I was trying politely to make.



And you can hardly blame Sean for not giving you a free suspension set, they are a little expensive. But tell you what, I was thinking of a neat test where we would bolt one of Sean's shock towers to a big piece of channel, then bolt any one of his competitors to the other side of the channel, then use a hydraulic pullback ram hooking the two together and see whose fails first. Sort of like a shock tower shoot out, not unlike the old dodge vs. ford pull off. So how about you send me a set of his competitors towers (for free of course) and I will conduct the test (as an impartial third party of course) and video tape it for evereyone to see. I honestly don't know what the outcome would be but it would be fun to try it out, what do you say?



Jonathan

 

[Greg Boardman-RIP]

JOblenes,

I don't feel as if I was being a harsh. Your original statement "very little practical difference " needed to be corrected. The differences are pretty substantial to say the least. Piston overlap is one area I would be concerned with, as well as seal failure. Take a look at them when you valve your shocks to your specs and let us know your findings. I am interested to hear an engineers perspective! As for asking for a free system, I have never said I wanted it for free. That would be silly and could create bias for a company that was more generous. I have paid for all the KORE components on my trucks. Espescially the first ones that I paid RETAIL for. That was back when Sean was bragging about buying 3 Rancho 9000's and getting one free. Even bought more stuff when he was discussing the technicalities of tuning a 9000's rebound circuit, turning the knob... ... ..... But that is not the case. You are more than welcome to come out and do a 500 mile test with me in Baja. I have 1000's of off road miles logged on the current setup on Big Red. I would love to abuse some other stuff too! That is how KORE stuff has gotten the reputation it deserves. Abuse! Loads of it! Then a little more... ... . You get the point, right? No Black Magic here, just tons of R&D, specificity in design, not off the shelf, and tons of Baja miles... . At an extrodanary rate of speed... . I think Malcolm Smith said it best," That is the best off road truck I have ever driven Greg. "



Greg DRC

 

[BColburn]

Seeing as I won't be able to do my suspension till late next year, I look forward to most of these discusions if kept friendly, also "Just the facts ma'am". And on the motorcycle analogies, no rotary valves on a Ducati, on a 73 Kawasaki 350 Avenger, sure, but not on a Duck!

 

[JOblenes]

Yeah sorry about the slip I should have said the unique Desmo valve train. The rotary part was from another thread I was reading a while back with a Ducati engine with rotary valves http://www.autocarindia.com/new/Information.asp?id=1268

 

[BColburn]

Interesting engine.

 

[JOblenes]

JOblenes,

I don't feel as if I was being a harsh. Your original statement "very little practical difference " needed to be corrected. The differences are pretty substantial to say the least. Piston overlap is one area I would be concerned with, as well as seal failure. Take a look at them when you valve your shocks to your specs and let us know your findings. I am interested to hear an engineers perspective! As for asking for a free system, I have never said I wanted it for free. That would be silly and could create bias for a company that was more generous. I have paid for all the KORE components on my trucks. Espescially the first ones that I paid RETAIL for. That was back when Sean was bragging about buying 3 Rancho 9000's and getting one free. Even bought more stuff when he was discussing the technicalities of tuning a 9000's rebound circuit, turning the knob... ... ..... But that is not the case. You are more than welcome to come out and do a 500 mile test with me in Baja. I have 1000's of off road miles logged on the current setup on Big Red. I would love to abuse some other stuff too! That is how KORE stuff has gotten the reputation it deserves. Abuse! Loads of it! Then a little more... ... . You get the point, right? No Black Magic here, just tons of R&D, specificity in design, not off the shelf, and tons of Baja miles... . At an extrodanary rate of speed... . I think Malcolm Smith said it best," That is the best off road truck I have ever driven Greg. "



Greg DRC

Sorry Greg we will just have to agree to disagree, I understand what you are saying about the piston overlap and perhaps you are right to be concerned. I for one am concerned about the HPCR fuel system on my truck, that doesn't mean it is total junk, it is quite the opposite really. So with all due respect I still believe, i. e. in my humble opinion, that overall there is very little practical difference between the top offerings from these and a few other shock vendors, and that statement needs no correction. My apologies, sincerely, for assuming you wanted stuff free. That was the impression I got from another thread with the "what invoice?" comment or something to that nature. I would still like some of Lorenz competitors' towers to test though (for free, I hate to spend that kind of money to destroy them!!)



I can see we also have a different opinion on the 500 mile baha road test. Just because a particular part lasts for a few thousand miles in Baha does not automatically mean it will survive on my truck for the next 5-10 years that I own it, in the conditions that I drive it, or that said part is anywhere near an optimum design (for whatever parameters/contstraints was intended). If so the only testing Dodge, Chev, Ford, Toy etc. would do is in Baha. I know that in some of my discussions with Lorenz we talked about things like material strength, fatigue endurance limits, weldment designs and Sean even asked about metal embrittlement at the cold temperatures up in my neck of the woods. I think he is really working hard to cover his bases so that his "baha testing program" comes off without a hitch. That is what I hoped I had communicated in what I believe was my second post.



As far as specificity in design I think Lorenz is trying to do exactly that. They want people to talk about their shock settings for their vehicle setup for their terrain. If you look at my sig I have a few fairly heavy components on my truck and I am not convinced a Baha proven specificity four your race trucks will fit my needs. Again, I will tune the valving on my truck just like I tune the shock on my quad, to meet my specificity. Its funny about the Rancho shocks and the whole turning the knob thing, its a great concept and they really do deserve some credit for trying to bring that kind of adjustability to that market niche/price point, but I can see how the Rancho's would not meet the desert racing communities needs. I wish I could afford a set of bypass shocks to make the whole tuning process that much easier compared to ripping into the shock to adjust the setting, but hey, I only earn so much money.



And here is the part that makes me not like some of these threads, but I am going to go ahead and type it anyway (though I have a sneaking suspicion will probably come to regret it and should have quit while I was ahead). I understand the need for you to hype your business, but some of the grandstanding and the more-or-less personal attacks on people like Sean does not do you credit and is a disservice to the TDR membership. This is not meant as a retaliatory attack on you, and I really hope you won't take it that way. In my initial thread I made some comments concerning the "black magic" and that was only because, from the threads I have read one here, that is the impression I am left with based on the shots taken at Lorenz Industries for "stealing secrets" or somthing implied to that effect. Needless to say you will not see me attack any of Lorenz's competitors personally (Dilettante, Billy Bob or otherwise), I don't know them. But if you have any technical questions about his towers I would be happy to reply to the extent that I know (though I will be away for the next couple of days so please don't feel I am dodging anything If I don't respond before Sunday). I should make it clear that I am in no way affiliated with Lorenz Industries, I paid for my stuff from Lorenz as well, I am just a fellow TDR member that offered him some help, much like I would offer you if you broke down in my neighbourhood. Lorenz did give me a break because I offered to help with some otherwise free advice.



Jonathan

 

[JOblenes]

Interesting engine.

Yeah, I thought so too. That's why the rotary valve part kind of stuck in my mind. Hopefully the age of the IC engine is not in its sunset. There is still lots of cool stuff to do out there.

 

[GTani]

My Bilsteins are nickel plated and they rust big time.

By the way,I think the old Vincents had a desmo valve train.

 

[BColburn]

Not sure about the Vincent, seems I remember a spring on the valve, I know the old HRD(Vincent predecesor) had an external spring. But, back to the Sus. . I've got till next fall, I can't wait to see what all gets developed between now and then! Carli, Lorenz, Kroeker, Greg... You guys get Busy!

 

[Lorenz]

Sway-A-Way

This is Ryan from Sway-A-Way, I am the Director of Sales/Marketing for the company. Sean from Lorenz Indutroes brought this post to my attention, so I wanted tocome on and set a few things straight: First I would like to say that it takes a tremendous lack of professionalism to come onto a public forum and bash a compay and their products. When it comes to the high end offroad shock, there are 4 major players, now every company does things a little differently whether its materials, or design, length etc, but when it is all said and done there are alot of differences however the products are very similar, I like that comparison between Yamaha and Honda because it is so true in the high end shock market.



Here the correct comparisons between RaceRunner and Fox from someone who works for Sway-A-Way.



Fox - 17-4 stainless shafts

Fox uses a combination of Stainless and Hard Chrome shafts depending on the shock. Sway-A-Way, Fox, King & Bilstein all use hard chrome, must not be to bad considering it is an industry standard for the most part!!!!



SAW - plated steel

RaceRunner Shocks have been using Hard Chrome shafts for years, however we have made the switch to Nitrosteel which will not chip or rust and provides less stiction on the seals



Fox - U. S. made Aurora Heims

SAW - Chinese

Teflon Lined Steel Spherical Bearings from a US supplier, RaceRunner shocks are 100% US made



Fox - Body is Cadmium plated

True



SAW - high nickel - rust bucket - be sure to clear coat them.



RaceRunner Shocks were cadmium plated up until 4th Quarter 2004, we then switched to Electroless Nickel for the following reasons:

1. Cadmium plating looks great when it is brand new, however it tarnishes very easily and cannot be cleaned.

2. Electroless Nickel offers the same high corrosion resistance as Cadmium with the high quality shine which is much easier to maintain. We did have an issue with rust on the earlier versions with Nickel, this was due to incorrect tolerances provided by our old plater. All cyclinders are machined to the highest tolerances and have strict Mil-Spec QQ-N-290 guide lines.



Fox - seal compound came from snow-mobile tech

Hmmmmm.....



SAW - old-school Viton and urethane - oil leaks out as temp drops (beware if you buy these and live in a cold climate)



All seals and O'rings used in RaceRunner Shocks are high temperature Viton (Flourocarbon) wich has a temperature service rating of -20f to 400F, if you ask me -20 is pretty damn cold.



In order to fit the Sway away shocks in to tight places they ignore primary rules of hydraulics- Like Piston Overlap- That's why they're known for leaking and require maintenance on seal failures.



Primary rules of Hydraulics???? Another Hmmmmmm... . We use a 7075 flat high flow piston w/ deflective disc valving similar to Fox. The reason for the differences in length is because Fox uses an internally threaded top cap and seal cap which requires longer cylinder length thus providing a longer eye to eye length. Comparing the travel of the competition & RaceRunner shocks our product has a shorter eye to eye dimension for the same length of travel which has nothing to do with hydraulics. I am not disputing the fact that we did have issues with leaking about 5 or 6 years ago, however this was due to poor machine tolerances from the outside manufactures we were using which is the sole reason why we purchased over a million dollars in machinery and proceeded to manufacture everything in house in our brand new facility in late 2000.



That is another reason KORE quit using the KING shocks. Bad seal carriers. King race shocks are a pretty good shock. You see them on all kinds of Trophy Trucks and 1 cars. I haven't seen SAW shocks on many race cars. Maybe a few dune buggies and such. They are fine for the weekend warrior but will not hold up to the abuse we can dish out.....



RaceRunner Shocks are found on many championship race cars and Trucks such as:



Craig Turner Multiple Score 7 Open Championships

Barry Karakas Consistant 7 Open Top 3 Finisher Score/ 3 Consecutive MDR championships and 2005 MDR 7 Champ and Overall points champ.

Mongo Racing Top 3 finisher BITD Stock Full

Long Beach Racers 2004 7x Score Champions



These are just a few examples, Greg is right about the Class 1 and Trophy Truck classes, however most of these teams got started while we were having our issues in the past, and now that we are just as good if not better than the competition it is hard to get them back because both Fox and King make very good products, you know the saying "If its not broke, dont fix it" this applys here. I have no problems putting our products up against any of the competitors and our product is very capable. If you have any questions or concerns regarding RaceRunner Shocks please feel free to email me -- email address removed --

 

[Lorenz]

Sean here now,



I'll respond to some of the other things that have been said after the dust settles. I'd like to hammer any other shock issues if there are any left. Thank you Ryan for taking the time to provide TDR with some Sway-a-Way product info. When's the last time you've seen a multi-million $ company come onto a public forum at the whim of a phone call... ? I take it you weren’t expecting that kind of answer Genros? You jumped onto a hot topic and I honestly thought you were joking when I saw the title to your post a couple of days back. Welcome to TDR!



I've learned we have to take ONE issue at a time on TDR otherwise we get to squeak out of simple poignant questions. I hope this has opened the door to compare and contrast questioning. I am very confident LORENZindustries will come out on top when the “Black magic” is no longer allowed to be used in marketing a shock tower and Race Quality shocks. TDR membership has to insit on answers rather than rhetoric for this to happen. I want to reiterate how easy and straight forward it is to make a Dodge suspension work the way you want it to.