Switch to synthetic?

[nbr1trucker]

synthetic

Hi I have 80,000 on my truck, and was wondering if it was ok to switch to synthetic, for all of the reasons. don't want oil leaks just the benefits. i've been using rotella since i bought it with 43,000 miles on the clock. thanks Ian

 

[monkfarm]

Neb 1 trucker

If it was my truck, assuming you had regular rotella (really good conventional oil) oil changes (so sludge didn't build up), I would do it, now, not later, (or at the end of this oil cycle. ). I don't think you would be tossing the dice too bad on that one.

 

[HC]

I've switched several high mileage (~100k) vehicles to synthetics without experiencing any problems, but only one was a diesel. Some will recommend an engine flush, but I can't handle that myself. I think changing at shorter intervals (maybe 3k?) for a couple of changes is another way to "cleanse" your engine that is much less trouble and doesn't scare me like flushing oils.



As to the earlier post questioning what we're seeing with bypass filters, Riflesmith hit the nail on the head. Some have argued that having the bypass filter gives artificially "low" numbers because it removes the larger wear particles from the oil. Others argue the wear particles are generally small enough to go though the filter, so it really doesn't impact your oil analysis that much. I don't know which is true, BUT, I still believe the general trends. If my iron went up by 10 ppm, measured with the bypass on, during the first 5000 miles after an oil change, and now with more than 30,000 on the same oil it is only increasing by <10 ppm every 5k, then I believe the trend shows my wear rates are not increasing with the "older" oil. I think this is supported by the fact that once, I went longer than I should have between filter changes, and the wear rate for that run jumped up, even after factoring in the higher mileage. Based on that experience, I now change full flow every 5k and bypass at no greater than 15k. My driving conditions more than 5k per month and only a mild injector upgrade, so long change intervals are a big bonus for me. I can slap in a new filter in much less time than a full change + clean up takes me. And it keeps everyone but me out from under the hood - no need to let Jiffy Lube or the dealers under there if you don't have to!

 

[DocStressor]

I agree with HC’s advice regarding a short change interval following a switch to synthetic oil. I’ve seen very high oxidation levels and elevated wear metals in synthetic oil after only 2. 5K following the switch. Some of this has to do with the amount of conventional oil left over after the change. But it is mostly the result of the ester based components of the synthetic oil suspending sludge and varnish material that was deposited on metal surfaces while conventional oil was in the engine. Surfaces get coated with some of this stuff regardless of how often the conventional oil is changed. With frequent changes, not enough ever accumulates to do any real harm. But when you first switch to synthetic, it all gets suspended at once. This becomes more of an issue the longer conventional oil is used in the engine.



Changing out 11-12 quarts of synthetic oil early is expensive so a flush could make sense. I don’t like the solvent type engine flushes that some outfits sell since they dilute the oil which can cause unnecessary wear. There is a newer product called AutoRx that a lot of the oil geeks like. It is a based on natural fatty acids (these are not corrosive) which themselves have lubricant properties. They solubilize sludge in the same manner as polyol esters. You can locate the produce with a Google search. A friend of mine used this on a Camry with >200,000 miles with good results.



Bypass filters do not remove wear metals or skew analysis results. I have seen 3 studies that verify this. First electron micrographic analysis clearly shows that “normal” wear metal particles are well below 1 micron is diameter. Second a guy posted results on the Noria oil board where he filtered used oil sequentially through a series of filters with decreasing pore size followed by oil analysis. He did not see any decrease in wear metal with a 1 micron filter. Finally, a guy from the TDI board analyzed his oil after 10K miles, installed a bypass filter without changing the old oil, ran the care for a couple hundred miles and then re-analyzed the oil. The wear metals only decreased in proportion to the amount of make up oil that was added with the bypass filter.

 

[Pit Bull]

Read in the TDR, about a Dodge CTD going over 1,000,000 miles using/changing Rotella T 15w40 and Mopar filter every 5,000 miles. That's enough miles for me to get out of this truck so synthetic won't be necessary, plus if I use the same maintenance routine I will be over 108 years old by the time I reach 1,000,000. I wonder what kind of oil they will be selling by then?

 

[ProZack]

Bypass filters do not remove wear metals or skew analysis results. I have seen 3 studies that verify this. First electron micrographic analysis clearly shows that “normal” wear metal particles are well below 1 micron is diameter. Second a guy posted results on the Noria oil board where he filtered used oil sequentially through a series of filters with decreasing pore size followed by oil analysis. He did not see any decrease in wear metal with a 1 micron filter. Finally, a guy from the TDI board analyzed his oil after 10K miles, installed a bypass filter without changing the old oil, ran the care for a couple hundred miles and then re-analyzed the oil. The wear metals only decreased in proportion to the amount of make up oil that was added with the bypass filter. [/B][/QUOTE] Lee, if particles less than 1 micron cause "normal" wear, what do particles greater than 1 mircron cause? seems bigger should cause more wear, if not why. Dont know what bypass filter the guy on the TDI board used but this is the results with oilguard from an independent lab . testhttp://oilguard.com/side_menu/bypass_filtration/independent_laboratory_test_page.htm

 

[HC]

ProZack,

He's saying something slightly different that what you thought. The test wasn't saying what size particles cause the wear. He was taking used oil that was already full of wear particles, doing an oil analysis, then pumping the oil through a bypass filter, then doing oil analysis again. The purpose of the test was to see if the filter would "fool" you into thinking you weren't getting any wear, when maybe you really were. (This has been a topic of much speculation on past threads. ) He concluded the filter doesn't affect the oil analysis results. This is good news for those of us who use bypass filters - we can still "trust" the analysis to tell us what is really going on.



Lee, thanks, you always come through with good data.



Pit Bull, I did the math - I'll only be 67 when I hit 1,000,000. Guess I'll have to keep using synthetic...



In truth, synthetic is neither costing me nor saving me money at this point in time. I change the filters and do analysis often enough that even with my extended changes, the cost is roughly equivalent to doing full changes with conventional every 5k. (When I get my Oilguard filter installed, the synthetic will be cheaper due to much more cost-effective filter prices. ) I like the cold flow properties, protection against turbo coking, reduced time spent doing changes, and having regular analysis that would alert me to new problems like air filter or head gasket leaks. I don't claim my truck will last longer than someone changing with Rotella or Delo; but I'm very happy with the overall package of doing it this way. Those benefits are enough for me; but there's one more that's almost priceless: The looks of the faces of most folks, when you tell them that you change your oil every 20 or 30 thousand, whether it needs it or not...

 

[yogibear]

GOOD POST HC!! I agree with you on everything but the age for the 1M miles, he!! I'm 64 now, be 65 in June! I went 87K one time on the 00 before I changed, analysis said it was still ok.

Where are you going to mt. the Oilguard bypass? I can't find a place to mt. my BMK-15 on my 03. Does the Oilguard use a spin on filter?



Larry

 

[DocStressor]

ProZack – HC just explained very well what I was trying to say about bypass filters not removing wear metals. “Normal” wear metal particle result from metal to metal contact (mostly at startup), corrosion, and abrasion by dirt particles or agglomerated soot. The destructive dirt particles are in the range of 10-30 microns. Larger particles are efficiently removed by standard full flow filters whereas smaller particles can pass through the oil film on bearings, rings, cam lobes, etc. without much metal contact. Metal abrasion by dirt particles in the 10-30 micron range gives rise to the sub-micron wear metal particles that are measured by oil analysis. These are “normal” wear metal particles. If the oil film breaks down because of excess heat or pressure, metal to metal contact occurs under high stress conditions. The result can be visible galling of the metal parts. This results in larger wear metal particles that can sometimes even be seen with the naked eye. These don’t show up in oil analysis because they are either removed by the filter or because they are too large to give a signal in the spectroscope. These are “abnormal” wear particles that can only be detected by a more expensive oil analysis technique called particle analysis. This is a limitation of used oil analysis that many people (even many lube technicians) don’t understand.

 

[nbr1trucker]

thanks

Thanks guys for the info. royal purple goin in next change. IanOo.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Lee Weber



The result can be visible galling of the metal parts. This results in larger wear metal particles that can sometimes even be seen with the naked eye. These don’t show up in oil analysis because they are either removed by the filter or because they are too large to give a signal in the spectroscope. These are “abnormal” wear particles that can only be detected by a more expensive oil analysis technique called particle analysis. This is a limitation of used oil analysis that many people (even many lube technicians) don’t understand.

Lee based on what I think you are saying I would assume that a person would be better off changing oil and filter every 3500 - 5000 miles using a good oil and filter, otherwise you need to do a lot of expensive analysis. Am I reading you right? I would use synthetic if the environment I used my truck in was Alaska in the winter or death valley in the summer and heavy towing. Mine is a Mall cruiser so I don't count But I can see where many of the TDR members operate their trucks in severe conditions and need synthetic oil, extra filtration and oil analysis and even particle analysis. It would be nice if one of the lube experts would give some guidelines on the environment that a truck would be operated in that would require synthetic engine oil, etc.

 

[DocStressor]

I think most folks on this board would agree that there are no conditions where the Cummins really requires a synthetic oil except for extreme cold. That’s because there is no such thing as a “bad” CH-4/CI-4 rated diesel oil, at least as far as I have been able determine from posted oil analysis results. Synthetic makes sense under the following conditions:



1. Cold weather. How cold? If you find that it takes more than a few seconds for your oil pressure to come up after a cold start or the engine runs rough for a couple of minutes, you would benefit from synthetic. This should result in less wear, longer engine life, and the convenience of being able to drive away sooner.



2. Very heavy towing, sled pulling or racing. Synthetic offers extra protection under these conditions. But towing within the CGVW limit doesn’t seem to stress the oil much. I see better oil analysis numbers when towing than when my truck has lots of cold starts and short trips.



3. Lots of driving. You can safely extend your oil change interval 2-3 times with synthetic oil. If you go longer than this, you should get a bypass filter. This can save you money even considering the cost of oil analysis. Most people just do analysis until they convince themselves that they really can extend the drain interval. After a while they don’t bother.



4. Very little driving. You often hear than most engine wear takes place during startup. This is true if you drive short distances most of the time, but not for the reason you might think (metal to metal abrasion during startup). A condition known as corrosive-abrasive wear occurs when acids formed by combustion are not vaporized by high enough engine temperatures. When an engine is shut down, most of the oil film drains off the metal parts and the thin layer of oil that remains is not able to control the acid. Oil nitration and corrosion of the metal surface takes place as the engine sits idle. The corrosion layer is removed by metal to metal contact the next time the engine is started. This is why engines that are driven infrequently or mostly for short trips do not last as engines that log lots of highway miles over a short period of time. Synthetic oils bind to metal parts better than conventional oils and often have more robust anti-corrosion additive packages. So if you only use your truck on weekends or occasional long trips (like I do), you should see less engine wear with a synthetic.



These are the only conditions where synthetics have a real advantage. There is usually a small fuel saving realized with synthetic oil as the result of lower internal friction at any given load.

 

[amsoilman]

According to the (SAE) Society Of Automotive Engineers paper 881825, AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. performed a joint study of the relationship between the level of engine oil filtration and Engine wear rates, and found finer filtration reduced the rate of Engine wear.



Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.



The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.



Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8. 5 Microns and 7 Microns.



Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.



ANALYSIS



The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.



CONLUSIONS



The researchers drew the following conclusions:



Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration.



Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear, and “The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter’s ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system.



The smallest particles most popular “full Flow” filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns, depending on the filter brand.



I’m here to tell you the Amsoil brand “by-pass” oil filter achieves high efficiency. For particles of 3 Microns and greater, they are 98. 6 %! At 1 Micron, they are 71. 2 %!



Their “Full flow” oil filter achieves high efficiency for particles of 20 Microns and greater. In fact, its efficiency for 10-Micron particles is 65 percent and its efficiency for 20-Micron particles is 98 percent! The tests I am referring to is the SAE J806 and SAE J1858. Together, the “By-pass” and the “full-flow” filters offer significantly greater protection than that of a conventional filter system.





You might look at a by-pass filter as an addition to your engine’s security system. Your regular oil filter passes the full flow of oil from the pump and removes particles bigger than about 20 to 30 microns. Left in the oil, particles smaller than this size can contribute to ring, liner and bearing wear. These same particles can also contribute to engine deposits, which can hurt engine performance and induce oil consumption.



If the regular “full-flow” filter were designed to filter smaller particles, there would be a risk of insufficient oil flow through the engine as particles accumulated in the filtering media of the full-flow filter element. In fact, regular filters come equipped with a “relief” valve, to allow some of the oil to by-pass them completely. These valves insure the proper flow of oil is maintained to protect the engine, even if the filter media accumulates enough material to cause excessive pressure drop across the filter, or the oil is too thick to pass through it fast enough.



By-pass filters are an addition to the regular oil filter. They take only a portion of the oil pump’s flow, and can therefore be more efficient in removing even smaller particles than 5 microns. Eventually, all of the oil gets circulated through the by-pass element. Removing particles smaller than 20 microns is another step in reducing the risk of engine wear, and can also help in reducing risk of oil viscosity increase.



A side benefit of a by-pass filter is that it usually increases the amount of oil necessary to fill the engine oil system. More oil means contaminants are less concentrated and likely to cause harm to the engine. More oil also means more additives are available to neutralize contaminants and protect vital engine parts.



By-pass oil filters can add to your line of defense against engine wear and deposits, helping maintain engine performance and long engine life. When it comes to providing you with security for your engine, a high quality filtering system goes along way. But then so does high quality synthetic engine oil!



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[Turbo Thom]

Different reasons have been given for using synthetic oil. I will say if the truck is used like a "soccer mom" suv, then dino oil will do you forever. You can change oil when ever you want. I installed the dual by-pass system because of towing and when on the road the availibility oil change is not always there. Even at home I have run 3K miles over the time.



Take a full timmer with an RV. That can get to really be a problem changing oil. So carry a gal of oil, a filter, and you will be good to go for at lest 15K miles. For someone to protest "using syntethic oil" , synthetic just does fit his stiutation. Don't use it. But if it's just for the sake an argument, then you have the right.



And as for as the micron thing, at start up I want oil 'tween my rings and cyl wall. I have changed oil twice in the last 1 1/2 years and that oil change was just for me. As a lot of you know I have 254K on it now and when the valves are done the top is clean as a diesel can be. This thing works wel for me and I'll keep doing it.



. . PT. .

 

[Texas Diesel]

The engine will go 1,000,000+ million miles on good old dino oil, so what is the gain if you use synthetic or bypass filters?



As far as bypass filters, every hose, fitting, adapter or whatever you add has the potential to leak or fail. You need to weigh the risk vs the gain.



Given regular (and cheap) dino oil changes the engine will outlive the Dodge parts.



I have seen the inside of a CTD with 285,000 miles, it looked new and had been run on dino stuff and Mopar filters right off the dealer shelf, not even the better Stratopore ones.



There is a big "coolness factor" and bragging rights with the bypass hardware, I just think the oil filtration is fine OEM.

 

[Turbo Thom]

Tejas deezel read my post as for the reasons. I guess I just lack the ability to explain clearly.



. . PT. .

 

[Pit Bull]

Very good member information. Thanks guys for sharing your lube knowledge. Makes me feel better about how I am maintaining my baby

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Tejas Deezul
The engine will go 1,000,000+ million miles on good old dino oil, so what is the gain if you use synthetic or bypass filters? ...

The gain comes from not having to take time out every 3-6 weeks to change the oil.

If you drive 18,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 mile oil changes, you are changing your oil every other month. If you drive 36,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 miles changes, you are changing your oil every month.

If you drive 18,000 miles from June to August during your summer 'vacations' and insist on 3000 mile changes, you're changing your oil every two weeks.

Now you may be willing to do this. But I'm not. My time is worth *far* more than that. And I have entirely too much to do to take the time out to change the oil so frequently. That's why I went with synthetic and bypass filtration. At 60K miles on the oil now, I think the oil and bypass system have paid for themselves overall.

The first 60K mkiles, I changed the oil every 5K miles. It got to be a pain having to stop what I'm doing and thinking, and check the elapsed mileage and then do it several times until I finally remembered to get the oil changed. No more.

I try to remember to do an analysis every 10K-20K miles. I try to remember to change the full-flow filter every 7K-10K miles, and the bypass every 14K-20K miles. But I don't always remember. With the bypass filtration and synthetic oil, I don't worry about forgetting once in a while, because the filtration and oil will carry me through.

Just one example of the gain to be had by switching. Synth lube, bypass filtration and no-drain are not for everyone. It's still a personal choice. I would't try to change your mind, and you won't change mine. All I can hope to do for anyone curious about the subject is to make sure he has as many facts as he can reasonably juggle so he can decide for himself.

Fest3er

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by fest3er





If you drive 18,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 mile oil changes, you are changing your oil every other month. If you drive 36,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 miles changes, you are changing your oil every month.

Drive 18,000 a year change every 5,000 miles. That is once every 3+ months. Not a big deal. Rotella T 15w40 and a Mopar filter. Whatever works for the owner of the truck is OK with me

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by fest3er

If you drive 18,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 mile oil changes, you are changing your oil every other month. If you drive 36,000 miles a year and insist on 3000 miles changes, you are changing your oil every month.



Fest3er

3000 mile oil changes? Holy worn-out drain plug Batman! I change mine every 5,000 and the oil analysis' indicate that twice that would be worth a try. With the oil fiter relocation kit I have oil changes are a snap, almost fun to do.



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