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Switched to synthetic, using oil, now what?

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HOT JUICE and CEL

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I am not a 3rd gen owner but I might have some insight on your 2 quarts low.



Blow-by. On my truck if I drive normal (speed limits) and don't go crazy on the throttle, I do not use oil or appear to use oil.



If on the other hand I decide I need to make a high speed run from my home over to Idaho and back at 75-80 mph with a load, I will use some oil. I lose it out the vent.



My bet would be that if you are pushing the pedal hard, your blow-by is pushing out oil vapor.



I am almost to 200,000 now and I have been running Amsoil 15W/40 since 1,500 with no problems. Once again though, if I push the pedal hard for 700 miles, I will be about 1 to 1 1/5 quarts down. ;)
 
Mundgyver said:
My bet would be that if you are pushing the pedal hard, your blow-by is pushing out oil vapor.



Thats kinda where I was going with that. I know that regular Rotella T boils off 10. 86% of it weight in vapor, and long, hard, hot pulls could show that.

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Diesel Nut said:
Thats kinda where I was going with that. I know that regular Rotella T boils off 10. 86% of it weight in vapor, and long, hard, hot pulls could show that.

You are comparing to the mineral oils.

Show me a graph where you are comparing to rotella synthetic, and mobil 1, royal purple etc.
 
GHarman said:
Pardon my typo on the diesel oil in my post it should have read 5w-40 not 5w-30. Regardless, my contention still stands; 5W-whatever is to light of a viscosity oil to be used in a diesel engine above 0 degree F. . Arguments can be made, but, please explain to me HOW ( operating viscocity?) 5W-40 and 15W-40 have similar characteristics. Sure 5W-40 flows but that is not the only attribute that is important. GregH

Do you understand multi-vis oils (5w30,15w40) as compared to regular oil such as SAE30wt? The multi-vis oils have plastics added to them (looks very similar to cured clear silicone caulk) in the manufacturing process. These plastics allow oil to thin out at a rate much slower than straight oil as temperature rises. The multi-vis designations (we'll use 15w40 as an example) signify that at 60 degrees, the oil has the same viscosity as straight 15w oil does at 60 degrees... now at 200 degrees, the oil has the same viscosity as straight 40w oil does at 200 degrees.



That is why 5w-40 and 15w-40 have similar characteristics once up to operating temps, because of the second number in the designation. The first number is simply a cold-flow number.



While multi-vis oils do get thinner as heat increases, they do so at a much slower rate than straight-weight oil.



Was that clear enough, or did I just confuse you more?
 
BigEasy said:
Do you understand multi-vis oils (5w30,15w40) as compared to regular oil such as SAE30wt? The multi-vis oils have plastics added to them (looks very similar to cured clear silicone caulk) in the manufacturing process. These plastics allow oil to thin out at a rate much slower than straight oil as temperature rises. The multi-vis designations (we'll use 15w40 as an example) signify that at 60 degrees, the oil has the same viscosity as straight 15w oil does at 60 degrees... now at 200 degrees, the oil has the same viscosity as straight 40w oil does at 200 degrees.



That is why 5w-40 and 15w-40 have similar characteristics once up to operating temps, because of the second number in the designation. The first number is simply a cold-flow number.



While multi-vis oils do get thinner as heat increases, they do so at a much slower rate than straight-weight oil.



Was that clear enough, or did I just confuse you more?
Thanks for taking your time to help. I do notice a hint of sarcasm/ patronising in your reply. First of all we are comparing multi vis. VS multi vis. NOT multi vis. to straight weight. Ease of flow is not the most important charteristic in comparing these two oils. I am willing to take instruction from anyone. Please instruct! GregH.
 
GHarman said:
Thanks for taking your time to help. I do notice a hint of sarcasm/ patronising in your reply. First of all we are comparing multi vis. VS multi vis. NOT multi vis. to straight weight. Ease of flow is not the most important charteristic in comparing these two oils. I am willing to take instruction from anyone. Please instruct! GregH.



Here is a comprehensive list (best you'll find outside of the lab) of multifunctional additives and their functions. Notice the same chemicals and compounds perform more than one function.



Also notice the LAST paragraph about VISCOSITY.



Multifunctional Additives (in Alphabetical Order) listed as to Functional Agent, additive category, general or specific chemical compound, and how it works, respectively.



Antifoamants or foam inhibitors (Protective Additive): polymers such as silicone polymers and organic copolymers of the silaxane's; creates a lens that reduces the bubble's surface tension.



Antioxidants or oxidation inhibitors (Protective Additive): ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, aromatic amines such as organic tolutriazoles, thiadiazoles, diphenylamines, olefin sulfides, carboxylic acids; decomposes peroxides and terminates free radical reactions. Increases temperature of base oil at which base oil may tend to oxidize. Oxidation of oil promotes polymerization of sludge particles and increases viscosity.



Anti-Wear and Extreme Pressure Additives (Surface Protective Additive):

ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, Organic Sulfur-Phosphorus-Nitrogen compounds, Borates and Borate Esters, Tricresyl Phosphates, amine phostphates, and other phosphate esters, Chlorine compounds, and lead diamylcarbamates, lead and barium naphthenates, sulfurized olefins; protective film interacts at various temperatures and pressures to provide either a plastic interface or to provide a compound which shears at the surface.



Demulsifier (Performance Additive): hydroxyalkyl carboxylic esters, alkenlycarboxylic esters; keeps water separated from lubricant.



Detergents (Surface Protective Additive): metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium, magnesium, boron phenolates, phosphates and sulfonates such as alkylbenzene sulfonic acids, alkylphenol sulfides, alkylsalacyclic acids; Lift deposits from surfaces to keep them suspended.



Dispersants (Surface Protective Additive): Alkylsuccinimides, alkylsuccinic esters (alkenyl succinimides); chemical reaction with sludge and varnish precursors to keep them acid neutralized and to keep them soluble. Detergent-dispersants often are the same chemical or come in compounds to accomplish the combined function(s).



Emulsifiers (Protective Additive): Polyisobutylenesuccinimides, alkenylsuccinate ester/salts. polyester amides, alkyl aminoesters; promotes a stable emulsion or mixture of oil and water.



Friction Modifiers or Friction Reducers (Performance Additive): Organic fatty acids and amides, lard oil, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters such as Tricresyl Phosphates, ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, family of diphenylamines and amides, and olefin sulfides. Reduces coefficient of friction formulated lubricant in the boundary lubrication regime. Some VII's also provide friction reduction.



Metal Deactivator (Protective Additive): ZDDP, ZTDC, Moly TDC, Antimony TDC, family of diphenylamines and amides, and olefin sulfides, heterocyclic sulfur-nitrogen compounds; inhibits corrosive effects of oxygen with metals and decreases metal interaction with oxygen compounds to reduce oxidation of oil.



Oxidation Inhibitors (See Antioxidants).



Rust Inhibitor (Surface Protective Additive): Barium sulfonates, amine phosphates, phosphordithioates, sodium thizoles (for coolants),



Pour Point Depressant (Performance Additive): polymethacrylates (PMA's); reducing wax crystal formation and increases solvency of oil at low temperatures. May be part of VII package.



Seal Swell (Performance Additive): nitriles, specific esters, organic phosphates and aromatic hydrocarbons. Increases volume of elastomeric seals.



Surfactants or Surface Active Agents (Protective Additive): family of diphenylamines and amides; usually part of the antioxidant package. Also provides enhanced friction reduction and allows oils to "climb" or spread on and over surfaces. Decreases but does not destroy surface tension



Soot Control or Soot Inhibitor (Protective Additive for diesels): Organic Barium compounds; keeps soot in suspension. Usually part of the dispersant package in diesel formulations.



Tackifiers (Performance Enhancement): copolymers of ethylene and propylene; helps oil cling to surfaces. Very useful in geared machines such as transmissions, differentials, and chains.



Viscosity Index Improver or Viscosity Modifier (Performance Additive): Olefin copolymers (OCP's), hydrogentated styrene-diene copolymers, styrene esters, polymetharylates (PMA's), mixed alkyl methacrylate-vinyl-pyrrolidines, aminated ethylene propylene, mixed alkylmethacrylate ethylene/propylenes; reduces viscosity change with temperature.



Increases viscosity of base oil as temperature rises when base oil tends to thin. Some VII's may also act as dispersants by incorporating dispersant compounds.
 
Thanks Amsoilman, Your time is greatly appreciated. I have used Amsoil products longer than many Cummins owners have been driving. I drive a 1st gen Cummins, owned snce it was new. The pour point of 15W-40 has proven itself adequate for year around use in my rig. It is certainly possible that the newer Cummins is better served by the 5W-40. Some Questions? What is the difference in film strength between 15W-40 AMSOIL and 5W-40 AMSOIL? Please compare 5W-40 AMSOIL and Rotella "T" 5W-40. Thanks again, GregH.
 
I didn't mean for any sarcasm/patronizing... just trying to be clear. I was showing the multi-vis vs. straight weight to explain what the designation means. Once that is understood, it makes it clear to see that once up to operating temp, there is virtually no difference between 15w40 and 5w40. I agree with you that flow isn't important, unless you're in EXTREMELY cold weather. I'll stick with the 15w40, as I tend to think that it will hang on all the internal parts better after shutdown, making for more protected starts... thus prolonging engine life.
 
GHarman said:
Thanks Amsoilman, Your time is greatly appreciated. I have used Amsoil products longer than many Cummins owners have been driving. I drive a 1st gen Cummins, owned snce it was new. The pour point of 15W-40 has proven itself adequate for year around use in my rig. It is certainly possible that the newer Cummins is better served by the 5W-40. Some Questions? What is the difference in film strength between 15W-40 AMSOIL and 5W-40 AMSOIL? Please compare 5W-40 AMSOIL and Rotella "T" 5W-40. Thanks again, GregH.



Film strength is the property of a lubricant that acts to prevent scuffing or scoring of metal parts. If you were to look at the wear scar in a "4-Ball" Wear test(ASTM D-4172), each of the Amsoil 40 grade oils would be pretty much the same. Since the Viscosity range of a 40 grade oil is between 12. 5 cSt and 16. 3 cSt@100 C it could only be determined by the 4-ball test.



What I am saying is this;Rotella"T" or the Amsoil could be on the low side of the 40 grade requirement, and still be considered a 40 grade oil.



THe Amsoil 15W-40 HD&Marine oil is 14. 4 cSt@100C so it is in the middle of the low and high limits for a 40 grade. Also Viscosity "Index" should be considered as well.



Wayne
 
Thanks, Wayne for your clarity. This and the related thread has been an excellent source of information. BigEasy, I understand that writing sometimes conveys emotions not intended. A choice of words, etc. I hope I did not offend anyone and no offense taken. Talking face to face is best, then verbal, with emotions and body language combined soften or exaggerate, show humor or anger/ disgust, unfortunately that is not possible. GregH.
 
Umm, really?



I have 95k on my 04. 5 that uses almost no oil use between changes (10k on the last one)... and this is with some highway, towing a trailer running 70mph... with 4. 10 rears.



My dad uses less than 1/4 qt between oil changes... he has 252k on his 99...



I had 201k on my 99 when I traded, it used less than 1/4qt of oil between changes as well...



So rotella is garbage and burns huhh? These trucks have seen nothing but Rotella 15w40. I don't see it where you come off making that statement...





steved
 
These oil threads evoke more emotion and opinion than the dreaded "who has the best transmission" threads... . :D



I run Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme- btw
 
AMassaro said:
These oil threads evoke more emotion and opinion than the dreaded "who has the best transmission" threads... . :D



I run Valvoline Premium Blue Extreme- btw







Agreed.



IMO, there is no clear "winner" when it comes to synthetic versus dino... An engine will go 500k on synthetic, but will also go 500k on dino... so which is really better?



steved
 
steved said:
Agreed.



IMO, there is no clear "winner" when it comes to synthetic versus dino... An engine will go 500k on synthetic, but will also go 500k on dino... so which is really better?



steved



Agreed as well, as far as someone saying that you will not get as much blowby with synthetic is untrue. I currently am running Amsoil HDD 15w40 and over the weekend I pulled a buddies truck up and down all the hills here in PA. After the 300 mile trip my bellhousing was covered in oil from the vent tube spewing out oil. Motor was down 1 1/2 quarts but I'd say the rings are seated now at 35k. I am going back to rotella to go with the Frantz bypass filter I just installed, just can't justify throwing away $6 worth of oil every 2-3k. No matter what oil you choose, clean oil don't cause wear and tear, dirty oil does.
 
05mxdiesel said:
Agreed as well, as far as someone saying that you will not get as much blowby with synthetic is untrue. I currently am running Amsoil HDD 15w40 and over the weekend I pulled a buddies truck up and down all the hills here in PA. After the 300 mile trip my bellhousing was covered in oil from the vent tube spewing out oil. Motor was down 1 1/2 quarts but I'd say the rings are seated now at 35k. I am going back to rotella to go with the Frantz bypass filter I just installed, just can't justify throwing away $6 worth of oil every 2-3k. No matter what oil you choose, clean oil don't cause wear and tear, dirty oil does.

If you truly ran only 300 miles, and had oil spewing out the vent tube, I can gaurantee you it was not the oils fault! Oil is not going to be forced out the vent tube just because it is synthetic based, or for that matter petrolium based! You definately have a mechanical problem, not an oil problem, or Perhaps you had it "OVER FILLED".



I have ran Amsoil motor oils in 3 different CTD trucks for hundreds of thousands miles, and none of them have spewed 1 1/2 of oil out the vent tube.



Wayne

amsoilman
 
Wayne in respect to you I did not blame the synthetic oil, I highly support amsoil and synthetic oils. To clarify, my vent tube was wet and I had oil dripping from the bellhousing. During the towing of 14k I had to maintain upper rpms. When I got there I noticed the oil down a bit, refilled and wiped the bellhousing clean. On the way home I did not tow and everything was fine and dandy. My point was no matter what oil you use some blowby out the vent tube can occur. Oh and on another point is it important that I extend the bp89 swivel fitting that I have on the stant #11111 cap?
 
05mxdiesel said:
Wayne in respect to you I did not blame the synthetic oil, I highly support amsoil and synthetic oils. To clarify, my vent tube was wet and I had oil dripping from the bellhousing. During the towing of 14k I had to maintain upper rpms. When I got there I noticed the oil down a bit, refilled and wiped the bellhousing clean. On the way home I did not tow and everything was fine and dandy. My point was no matter what oil you use some blowby out the vent tube can occur. Oh and on another point is it important that I extend the bp89 swivel fitting that I have on the stant #11111 cap?

Thaks for the clarification. I did not know you had a by-pass returning to the oil fill cap. This "could" attribute to some oil coming from the vent, especialy if you have a large amount of flow.



I use a 1/8"X1/4" bushing supplied in the Amsoil kits, which is noot used on the CTD applications.



I use this bushing to extend the swivel fitting down further in the valve cover.



This picture shows the extension.



Wayne

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