Symptoms of injector failure.

[JRThomas]

With 156k on the clock I know I could be closing in on the live expectancy of the injectors. What are the symptoms to look for?

 

[EMAC2]

Subscribing...

 

[FOXY005]

My symptoms were a longer than nornal crank time before starting, normal seemed to be 3 or 4 revolutions and it would start. Crank times got longer as time progressed, had it in to the dealer's to have the injectors checked and they found everything within specs. ??????
2 days later I had several long cranks and a WOULD NOT START situation that resulted in 6 new injectors, injectors were not installed by the dealer but an independent garage as I had little faith left in the dealer after their 5 Star diognostics of my problem.

 

[goodguys75]

I had a sticky injector, number 3 if i recall... . used diesel kleen and all went away... . upon start up it would smoke quite a bit and would idle rough and about after 30 sec it would clear up... just yesterday i let the grid heater heat up the motor and started and had no issues at all, thats when my truck would run bad, when i let the grid heater warm the motor... . cooling off here in vegas a little, so the heater worked a bit... .

 

[WalterJ]

JRThomas; This is my first diesel & am interested to know the same. I've been using Lucas Fuel treatment to augment the normal fuel additives. At 208K miles, so far, so good. About 30% time hauling our RV. A few have opined that without some fuel additive, I should expect to have had issues by now. I'd love to plan some overhauling activities @ 500K!! We'll see. Good luck to ya.

 

[CKelley1]

two common failures are worn injectors and solenoid failures. all trucks need better filtering. cummins said 2 microns Chrysler used 10. worn injectors start off won't start hot. if the ecm does not see high enough rail pressure, it will not signal the solenoid. the second type failure is the solenoid. it is not wire but a crystal, the tolerance of the parts is in the range of 3 or 4 microns. if the fuel has 10 micron dirt, it binds the parts and stresses the crustal causing failure. the ohmage on the injector is about 0. 4ohms when one cracks it will jump up over 1 ohm. i have seen from 1. 2 ohms to 32 ohms, when it cracks the truck will act like a backfire and miss afterwords. if the ohmage is low, like around 6 if you kill and restart it the ecm will try to adjust for it and you may not feel the miss but usually under heavy load the ecm can not handle it and the process starts over. first thing add a 2 micron filter. if warn injectors replace all with new, not rebuilt. the new have the new body design. if you have a solenoid failure, just replace the bad injector. do NOT over tighten the wire terminals on the injector. this will defiantly cause early crystal failure.

 

[EMAC2]

Here's what Cummins has to say about fuel filtration (with the link to the Cummins Quickserve site):
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Here are some more details along with the research we did with Cummins QuickServe on this:

Here are the details direct from Cummins QuickServe:
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Diesel Fuel

Diesel fuel performs three major functions in a Cummins® diesel engine.

It supplies all the energy for the engine.
It cools and lubricates the precision parts of the engine's fuel pump and injectors.
It enables emissions controlled engines to meet regulated emissions levels.
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Fuel Cleanliness

This section explains the importance of fuel cleanliness to the successful operation of Cummins® Engines.

Modern fuel systems have been developed to reduce emissions and fuel consumption, and improve engine performance. These high pressure systems operate at pressures approaching 2100 bar [30,500 psi] and with component match clearances typically from 2 to 5 microns for injectors. At these pressures, very small, hard particles are potential sources of fuel system malfunction.

Excessive contamination of diesel fuel can cause premature clogging of diesel fuel filters and/or premature wear of critical fuel injection system parts. Depending on the size and nature of the particles, this can lead to:

Reduced component life.
Component malfunction.
Fuel system and/or engine failure.

Determining fuel cleanliness requires measuring both the size and number of particles per size class in the fuel, i. e. the particle size distribution. The International Standards Organization (ISO) has developed a protocol for expressing the level of contamination by coding the size distribution called ISO 4406.

ISO 4406 cleanliness codes are expressed as a series of three numbers (x/x/x), which correspond respectively to the number of particles greater than 4, 6, and 14 microns. For example, the numbers in the ISO 4406 rating of 18/16/13 translate to:

18 - Up to 2,500 particles larger than 4µm (per mL of fuel)
16 - Up to 640 particles larger than 6µm (per mL of fuel)
13 - Up to 80 particles larger than 14µm (per mL of fuel)

Engine builders and fuel injection equipment manufacturers have found that the particles greater than 4 microns and greater than 6 microns are particularly critical to the durability of the fuel injection system. They also recognize that the fuel systems must tolerate hard particles smaller than 4 microns that are difficult to filter out, even with the finest filtration. To maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of filtration, Cummins Inc. has adopted the recommendation of the World Wide Fuel Charter that fuel supplied to engines meet the ISO 4406 code of 18/16/13 maximum for respectively 4, 6, and 14 micron particle sizes.

Cummins Inc. recommends that if the fuel does not meet the ISO cleanliness code of 18/16/13 when supplied to the engine, additional filtration be applied before the fuel is delivered to the equipment's fuel tank. A Cummins® Distributor or Cummins Filtration™ representative can supply hardware and additional filtration guidance and can recommend countermeasures such as improved fuel quality from the fuel supplier, and/or better fuel handling, storage, dispensing, and fuel tank cleaning techniques.


https://quickserve.cummins.com/qs2/p...n/3379001.html
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So, I'm not saying 2 uM is a bad goal, but Cummins isn't saying that is what you have to have either...

Here's my thread on the Mopar filter install that meets the Cummins Specs...

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...ere-Duty-Fuel-Filter-Installed-(2012-Install)

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Having said that, if you can get the 2uM filtration and it causes no problems with fuel delivery to the injectors, then why not?

 

[cerberusiam]

Here's what Cummins has to say about fuel filtration (with the link to the Cummins Quickserve site):

So, I'm not saying 2 uM is a bad goal, but Cummins isn't saying that is what you have to have either...

Here's my thread on the Mopar filter install that meets the Cummins Specs...

This does not address filtration. This article is wholly about fuel cleanliness and reccomendations, not about filtration.

As far as that goes, the extreme duty filter does not meet spec either because it is only 5 um absolute and the adopted standard references contamination at 4 um. Granted, at 5 um it is PROBABLY going to do an adequate job MOST of the time, but, still not to spec. The best benefit from this filter is the water stripping ability.

To meet the solids spec will take a 2-3 um absolute filter, so in a way Cummins is saying 2-3 um is needed which aligns with the independent studies that that set 3 um as the limit for solids in the fuel.

Injector problems are hard to quantify so basically you run them until there is issues. Unless cost is no factor then replace them every 100k to be safe. The list is endless for problems, low power, rough idle, hard start warm, hard start cold, white smoke, grey smoke, black smoke, rail pressure fluctuations, hiccups in power at certain rpms, hiccups in power under certain loads, changing fuel economy, etc. Could by an\all\combination of the previous.

The biggest measure is does the truck meet YOUR economy, power, and driveability needs. If so drive happy. If not, time for some diagnostics.

 

[EMAC2]

I guess I follow your logic, but that poses more questions. Why wouldn't Cummins specify better fuel filtration if it were necessary for the engine, injectors, or pump? Why would Cummins warranty the engines in Chrysler's applications if the filtration was not sufficient to meet their requirements? And please note the above is straight from the Cummins site, in reference to the High Pressure Common Rail engines.

Is there more information on Cummins Quickserve site that details the need for better filtration than I have posted above? Thanks for the replies; I trying to get a better handle on the requirements posted or written by Cummins.

 

[cerberusiam]

Cummins does not and will not warranty and engine installed in a Dodge truck. Period. Dodge buys the engines at a price form Cummins with no implied warranty from Cummins. Dodge warranties the engine and adheres to Cummins 100k warranty period so they don't look like chiselers. Why you ask? Because Dodge is CHEAP and will not follow Cummins reccomendations for filtration, line size, pumps, etc. They never have from the time they started putting these engines in the trucks and the initial release was held up for 3-4 years until Dodge acquiesed to demands they NOT put it a 1/2 ton truck.



Now TRY to get warranty thru Dodge on the engine when you have a problem. When it comes to the fuel system the first thing they do is look for extras. You add extra filters NOT on the approved list or a FASS, and you get waranty DENIED!!! Doesn't matter that you can prove the fuel pump is better or the filters are better, it is not OE so no warranty. The next thing they will do is pull a fuel sample form the tank. If THEIR testing determines contamination, warranty DENIED!!! Good luck getting them to TELL you what and how much the contamination was nor the fact you have filters that would handle that, contaminated fuel is grounds for warranty denial.



What Quick-Server is telling you is essentially the same thing, we adopted a standard for fuel in our engines and all consumers it is up to you to add filtration and cleaning to the fuel system meet the standard. If you don't, no warranty. If Cummins actually specified a filtration level and water stripping ability THEY would be liable if it did not work. This way they have wiggle room to point to the fuel as the issue, or, point to the platform manufacturer and say they are liable becuase they did insure a standard was met. Pretty sure in case of fuel system failure even Cummins is going to sample fuel and proceed from there.



Officially, you will NEVER see Cummins say 3 um is the standard, 98% water stripping is required, 3 psi is the minimum fuel pressure to the CP-3, 1400 degrees is the maximum EGTs, etc. Every single requirement will be generic enough they have an out. Such as fuel quality needs ot meet this standard, whatever EGT the stock fueling will create is fine, etc. There are unofficial numbers you will get from engineering and techs for these limits but you cannot hold them to it, its not published.



The fuel quality spec is ingenious, Cummins has come out a said "Consumer, the onus is on you to make sure your fuel is clean". It also gives their clients the impetus to push it right back to the owners. If the fuel meets the standard, a 20 um filter is adequate filtration so the owner is directly responsible if the fuel does not meet standard.

 

[Bob4x4]

The ctd's do not use a piezo injector,the late Fords do and I have heard the newest Duramax may

 

[DEK]

Why would they pull fuel from the tank, and not after its gone through the filtering system? just goes to show the really won't admit to quality failure,