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Synthetic oil/Extended drain interval?

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I have done a lot of research into extended drain with the synthetic oils and I have one question that I can't answer. The oil analysis that you would have done periodically tells you about contamination levels of everything bad. How do you know when your oil additive packages are depleted? These are the things that keep things from forming deposits carry the bad stuff to the filter after attaching themselves to the particles making them big enough to be trapped by the filter. Oil is said to be fine when you change it for lubrication, but you change it to renew the additives. Does anyone have the answer to this? Please no salesmen, I am looking for the answer to a question, not a product. Thanks for the help.

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99 2500 QC 4X4 AUTO SB 24V LARAMIE SLT 3. 5 LSD 285-75-16'S
 
If you have your analysis done by MY company, it will tell you... .

Aw, just kidding. So far I've had two analyses done, one by Fleetguard Monitor, one by Blackstone. Both have some pros and cons. I like the fact that Fleetguard is associated with Cummins, but I also like the fact that Blackstone seems very interested in doing business with individuals, so they seem to try harder to spice up their reports with helpful comments for people like you and me.
On the Fleetguard test, the elements they test for are grouped. For example, Silicon, Sodium, and potassium are shown under the grouping "Contaminant metals". Iron is under "wear metals". And there is also a group called "Additive metals", that includes Magnesium, Calcium, Barium, Phosphorous, and Zinc. So by watching for changes in the additive metals, you would get an idea when your additives were running low. But there are still two tricks: First, each oil company uses differing additive packs; for example, my Delvac 1 had zero Barium, so if you don't know the level for "new" oil then it is harder to determine what it should be later in life. Second trick - if you keep switching oil analysis companies, then you can't get good trends on your oil, because two different companies will get slightly different results for each element. But if you stay with the same company, then the trends do mean something.

The good news is, you don't have to figure it all out yourself. All of these companies will happily discuss your results over the phone. Pick one, get the analysis done, and then when you get the results in the mail call them and speak with a technical customer service representative. They will call up your file on their computer and go over it with you until you are satisfied you understand the results.

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2001 ETH, QC, LWB, 4WD, 3. 54, SPA Pyro & Boost, K&N RE-880 w/foam pre-cleaner, ARE Z-series Cab-high shell, Rear ARB locker, and all kinds of synthetic fluids...
 
Let's look at oil analysis for our engines. First off, to make sure you're taking full advantage of oil analysis, you should examine your sampling procedure and ask if it is -----representative, timely and well documented. A sample of oil should be analyized shortly after it is taken since it will represent a point in time of the engine condition, and become less significant the longer it sits. Most laboratories recommend taking an oil sample while the oil is hot. This will assure dirt particles will not have settled out.

The oil sample should be taken from a source where there can be no contaminants that can enter the sample bottle. The best place other than a by-pass oil system return line is from the oil dipstick, using a plastic hose and a suction device. These can sometimes be obtained from the lab you use.

In most situations the real value of the data is in determining trends rather than in the accuracy of any one individual test. In general there are two different classes of analytical tests, those that measure the physical properties of the oil, and those that measure the level of contamination.

Physical properties are a good indication of the condition of the oil, and are often used to determine oil drain intervals. Some of the most common physical property tests are: viscosity, total acid number (TAN) and total base number (TBN).

Kinematic Viscosity (ASTM D-445) determined at 40 Deg. C and/or 100 Deg. C is a measure of the flow rate of an oil in relation to time, and is expressed in centistokes (cSt) 1 square mm/1 second = 1 cSt. This data is used to assign an SAE grade to an oil. Example: 40 grade oil has to fall between 12. 50 cSt @100 C minimum, to 16. 29 cSt @ 100 C maximum. Normally a 25% increase in viscosity is a warning that the oil is reaching the end of its useful life.

TAN (ASTM D974) determines the level of acidity by mixing in an indicator solution and then adding potassium hydroxide (KOH) until the solution changes color. The acidity is expressed as the milligrams of KOH required to neutralize a gram of oil (mgKOH/g). TBN (ASTM D2896) determines the level of alkalinity in an oil, which indicates the ability of the oil to continue to neutralize corrosive acids. The test measures the change in electrical conductivity. A higher TBN oil is considered better in neutralizing acids than a lower TBN oil. It is best to measure the change in TBN from new oil of the same type and brand you are using. The TBN of engine oil may be obtained from data sheets, or measured by analyzing a sample of new oil. Some manufacturers, such as Amsoil put the TBN number on the labels. A 50% reduction in TBN is a warning that the additives are becoming depleted and an oil change should be considered.

Common contamination tests include: water content, fuel dilution, and dirt ingestion and wear metals analysis. Water contamination can usually be detected visually, but a water content test (ASTM D1744)) is sometimes used as well. Fuel dilution is serious in that it can significantly reduce oil viscosity and increase engine wear. Since most engine oils gradually increase in viscosity over their useful life, a noticeable reduction in viscosity is a strong indication of fuel dilution.

Wear metals are metals used in the manufacture of the engine that will wear in normal use, such as Iron (Fe), Chromium (Cr), Lead (Pb), Copper (Cu), Tin (Sn), Aluminum (Al), Nickel (Ni), Silver (Ag). Analysis of the types and levels of wear metals can be used to determine which engine components are wearing and if the level of wear is becoming critical. Most tests measure wear metal levels spectrographically. The most common is emission spectroscopy. In this procedure a small oil sample is burned in a high temperature flame, and the equipment detects different levels of light emitted. The equipment is calibrated to simultaneously measure the emitted light from as many as 18 different wear metals and contaminants.
Another wear metal test called the atomic absorption analysis will provide the greatest level of accuracy for each element examined, but is more costly as well as time consuming as it requires one pass through the machine for each element tested.
Either of these two wear metal tests are expressed in (PPM) Parts Per Million by weight.

Dirt is probably the most common engine oil contaminent, and high levels can lead to excessive engine wear. The most effective way to detect dust or dirt contamination is to monitor silicon levels by spectrochemical analysis, though some tests can indicate total solids by centrifugal separation or filtering through a fine membrane filter. Contamination levels will vary according to the type of engine and the application, with off-highway equipment often having the highest levels. Again, it is important to measure the change in silicon or solids levels, rather than look at any individual analysis.

Each engine manufacturer has data on the "normal" wear of each of the elements for a given oil drain interval. Example. Cummins, Iron (Fe) 50, GMC 6. 2 Iron (Fe) 250, Mack Iron (Fe) 150. Remember in reviewing a report, ask yourself; is the elemental level proportional to the time on the oil? Example: 6,000 miles on oil, Iron at 25 PPM is OK for the above engines. 12,000 miles on the same oil, Iron at 40 PPM is still OK. 3,000 miles on the oil, Iron at 40 PPM would be poor. Still within limits, but poor.

Additive levels may also be measured with spectrographic metals analysis. Normal metals analysis will detect the levels of zinc, phosphorous, calcium and barium, which are common elements in most additive packages. A 50% reduction in parts-per-million of these elements indicates the oil should be changed.

Most labs will compare the wear trends to similar operations using the same type equipment in order to more reliably predict component failure. Because of this, it is important and valuable to work with a lab that has years of experience, as well as hundreds of thousands samples in their files to compare data.

Periodic oil analysis is an important element in extending oil drain intervals and prolonging engine life, however looking at trends is the best solution to achieving this.

Wayne



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94'SLT 4X4 AT/White in color. Factory Tow Hooks & Running Boards. Amsoil By-Pass filter, Amsoil Air cleaner,and all fluids are Amsoil. Optima "Red Top" batteries.
BD exhaust Brake, BD Torque Lock, BD Torque Converter, Dr. Performance Stage II Injection Pump. Mag-Hytec Diff Cover,Mag-Hytec Transmission Pan, Isspro Pyro, Boost,Oil temp Gauges mounted in 3 Gauge post mount. One gauge monitors Engine Oil, Trans, Diff. Temps.
Wayne Owen
 
Having watched oil/eng. changes- samples for years the first thing you want to do with a eng/transmission/r. end is to send in a sample of the lub's (out of the bottle) for a base test-then at your every change sample again and you can set a pattern on each compent and compair one to the other. Any good company will send you a bar graft.
If you don't know the make up of the virgin lube you'r using you have nothing to compair that componet to. (be it eng-trans-r. end. /gear box.

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96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.
 
Ams oil he said No salesmen!!!!!!!
The other guy was correct,Use fleetguard-or blackstone(ft. wayne In. ) there are not bias to a lube co.
Triva guestion ? Does any one know the first company to mfg a semi-syn eng oil??
Where did they get the idea?????????
Truth. . If your are using a syn. your oil change should be up around min. 10 k -----unless you only run 2-10 miles to work.

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96-3500 SLT EXT. CAB AM/FM/CD-RINO LINER. D-CELERATOR EXH. BRK-RED LINE VAC. OVER HYD BRK CONTROL- AIR BAGS W/HVY DUTY AIR COMP. PUTCO S/STEEL DEEPBOARDS FRONT TO REAR. REESE 20K 5TH WHEEL & GOOSE -REESE 20K HITCH BELOW W/17K RECEVER. CLEAR COATED & SOUND DEADINGING &UNDER COATED 5 SPD/W 4:10 MCHLN'S 235/16'S UNIDEN PC76/WEATHER-WILSON 1000 MAG MOUNT ANT. 4 WHL ANTI LOC BRK SYS.
 
tdrmbramr, Amsoilman answered LSMITH's question without any product endorsement. The mention of Amsoil (one time) within his lenghty and very informative post was in reference to where one could find the TBN rating of an oil (IF the manufacturer divulged that information) not to sell LSMITH a product.
 
I just ordered a load of Amsoil HDD 5W30 & Series 2000 gear oil along with 5 sampling kits. These kits are from Oil Analyzers Inc. and doesn't appear to be affiliated with Amsoil (but I could be wrong).

The OAI kit looks quality with detailed info about taking samples and why sampling should be done and how often. The data sheet that you fill out to send in with the sample is extensive so you can pass on every detail about your vehicle and oil used. The kits are $14 each with the Amsoil membership.

Vaughn
 
Hey Vaughn,

Email me where you are getting these oil sampling kits. I need to get a few.

Thanks, Big Bob

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<font color=blue>"WHITE OBSESSION" 99 Quad Cab, White, SLT, 4x4, 5-sp, 3:54's, Raven cap (cab high), Rhino liner, Stainless Nerf Bars, Stainless Rocker Panels, Tow package, Pro-flap mud flaps with Stainless Cummins "C" add to rear flaps, Valentine One, Uniden PC78LTW CB, Hadley Bully Air Horns, HOT Power Edge, Psychotty Air Induction, Braided SS Fuel Lines, 4" Jardine Exhaust (Love the deep throaty sound), 285/75R16 Cooper A/T's, Navigator 55w backup lights. </font>

<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1086000&a=9265455" TARGET=_blank><font color=red>My 99 Dodge Cummins</A></font>
<A HREF="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1086000&a=9815423" TARGET=_blank><font color=green>BD Dyno Days 10/28/00</A></font>

<font color=purple>
Things to come; The clutch has let me know it is going to need attention very soon!
Pyro, 50# Boost and Fuel Pressure gauges (have Ultra lites will install shortly), PE EZ timing module and injectors (have Bully Dog step III injectors just need to install them), have 2 KC Daylighters (Stainless with 385,000 candlepower each), have 2 KC Fog lamps(Stainless 100w each) and waiting for Bar II Stainless Brush Guard to arrive, then will mount guard and lights.

NRA Life Member! (Need to protect our rights and FREEDOM!!)<font size=-2>

[This message has been edited by BIG BOB (edited 01-18-2001). ]
 
Hey Vaughn, do you mean Amsoil Series 3000 5W-30 HDD engine oil or Series 2000 75W-90 gear oil?

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