Synthetics question

[Mtngoat]

Well, I gotta admit, this has turned into an interesting thread!



Seems like there are supporters on both sides and like most things, it will a matter of my personal preference. And, right now I still do not have a clue what I'll do. BUT, I have learned a lot which I always do on the TDR. I will figure it out eventually!



Robin

 

[C Schomer]

I take high milage vacations and I quickly got tired of changing on the road. I switched to syn with the intention of running a year and change in the winter when the truck sets. One thing led to another. I've always been a believer in bypass filters, so I put one on. Then I needed analysis to be sure the oil and filtration were safe. I sample every 5k and change the full flow once the test shows good. Well, the tests keep showing everything is in very good condition so I haven't changed oil for 2 years now - it would be pointless. Craig

 

[Mtngoat]

2 years?? How many miles are on the oil. .



Robin

 

[Mtngoat]

oil analysis

Now, can someone explain oil analysis to me? And, who does it??



Robin

 

[DocStressor]

Do a Google search using "oil analysis" to answer both of your questions more completely. There are many labs that test used oil. The kits cost between $14-$20. The results show the level of specific wear metals, oil viscosity, %soot or particulates, and usually the % allowable oxidation and/or nitration of the oil. Water, fuel, and anti-freezed contaminants are also indicated if present. Some labs include TBN or total base number, which is an indiction of the oils ability to continue neutralizng acids. The labs will tell you if any of these indicators is outside of the normal range and if the oil could have remained in the engine for a longer interval.



In the Cummins, you know the oil is shot if the viscosity goes outside of the original specs or oxidation/nitration exceeds 50% of the allowable level. Wear metals, soot, and TBN are usually fine except in modified engines or those with a mechanical problem.

 

[C Schomer]

I just mailed off the 20k sample. I've done analysis on equip. at work for 15 years with great results. It has shown problems that definately would have turned into expensive breakdowns. I've had batches of new oil without the additives they were supposed to have - so much for Quality Control. In fact, I have one of those deals going on right now with a lube mfgr. At $36/gallon, I want new oil from them! Nothing but analysis would have shown me that. This is my first go-around with analysis with my CTD with equal satisfaction! RPs kits are $9. 50. Craig

 

[Mtngoat]

What kits are popular with the TDR members?



Robin

 

[MAllred]

On the job the Dodge goes about 160,000 miles a year and I'm sold on Fleetguard filters and Rotella mineral oil. I tried Rotella's synthetic oil and the motor began misting oil out the breather and the valve cover gasket and rear seal began leaking! I switched back to dino oil and these messy symptoms disappeared in 3 oil changes. By the way, on dino oil I still changes the oil at 5k intervals. If mothing else, it gives me an excuse to poke around under the truck for a look-see...

 

[6naline01]

synthetics

I am interested in synthetic lube for my 01 CTD but when should

I change over? Thanks in advance doc nielsen

 

[yogibear]

A lot of the members here say you shouldn't change to syn. till 20 or 30 Kmi. I have changed 3 trks. over to syn. at 6 to 8 Kmi. , with no problems. I changed my original oil at 2500 to 3000 mi. , then ran that till I was sure the eng. wasn't useing any oil, so I figured the rings were seated, and all was OK. I had a 96 with 300K, a 00 with 210K, and my 03 has 54+K now, all with no problems, no oil burners. Now on those 6 to 8 Kmi. , I didn't just poke around, I pulled heavy and hard with them. JMHO, for what its worth.



Larry

 

[Pit Bull]

Unless you pull heavy, I would not change until after 20K miles.

 

[Elite1]

Originally posted by MAllred

On the job the Dodge goes about 160,000 miles a year and I'm sold on Fleetguard filters and Rotella mineral oil. I tried Rotella's synthetic oil and the motor began misting oil out the breather and the valve cover gasket and rear seal began leaking! I switched back to dino oil and these messy symptoms disappeared in 3 oil changes. By the way, on dino oil I still changes the oil at 5k intervals. If mothing else, it gives me an excuse to poke around under the truck for a look-see...

MAllred, I have had excellent results with Mobil1 synthetics in gas motors over the years, I do believe a good synthetic offers better protection than dyno oil. That being said, I ran reg. Rotella for the 1st 110,000 miles on my CTD, mainly because of the cost of Synthetic. Then I bit the bullet and switched to Mobil Synthetic (forget the exact name, but the type for HD diesel engines, sold at truck stops), expensive stuff. But I figured it would extend the change intervals. I had a similar experience as yours in that I started getting droplets of oil coming out the breather tube noticed it on the clean driveway. I also developed a leak on the valve cover gasket, both of these symptons occured in the first 10,000 miles after switching to synthetic. I was due for a valve adjustment anyway so they put a new gasket on and it hasn't leaked since (over 50,000 miles now)... a slight amount of oil still comes out the breather tube, but I read a post from Illflem quite awhile back that had a good idea... he said to take a plastic bottle from vitamins or Asprin and drill thru the top and the tube and attach it with a zip tie or wire, that took care of that problem! I still get the extra benifits of Synthetic oil.

 

[DocStressor]

Superstition?

Yeah, Cummins says 5-20K before the switch, depending on how hard you work the engine.



The companies selling synthetic oils say you can switch at any time. My understanding of lube technology is that you could uses synthetic oil from the git go. Here's why: I've seen no evidence that initial wear rates are significantly different with different base stocks. The Grp III and Grp IV/V synthetics just hold up longer between changes. There is, however, a theoretical reason why synthetics MIGHT prolong the break in time. The better flow characteristics of synthetics base oils carry heat away better than conventional oils. Heat is required for proper seating of the rings in a heavy duty diesel engine. That's why engines that tow and run with higher EGTs break in faster than those that don't. There are 2 different aspects to the break in process. The first involves the actual frictional contact between "high spots" on metal surfaces. Little transient welds form that are broken by movement of the parts. The other process might be thought of as "metal flow". Under high temperature and pressure, metal parts separated by an oil film actually distort in shape and gradually develop more uniform surfaces. The first process is largely independent of temperature while the second obviously proceeds faster at higher temperatures. Since the second process produces less actually part wear, it the most optimal. So the slightly lower temperatures characteristic of synthetic oil use could affect the break in process by favoring the first process relative to the second.



But my question, which no engine manufacturer has yet given a satisfactory answer is: Is the difference really significant? Engine manufacturers tend to rightly be very conservative. They designed and tested their engines with conventional oil. It's the oil manufacturers and additive companies who have the obligation to demonstrate that their products meet the engine manufacturers specs. And most of them say it is fine to switch right away.



So go figure. Me? I wait 1,500 miles before changing to synthetic on my gas vehicles. I waited 14K (with hauling and towing) before switching over the Cummins. I guess I'm just a conservative sort of guy. Remember, conventional oils protect just as well as synthetics given proper drain intervals and operating temperatures. So unless you live in a very cold climate, there is really no advantage NOT to follow Cummin's recommendation, even though it might be baseless.

 

[Elite1]

Lee Weber, This is your quote, "But my question, which no engine manufacturer has yet given a satisfactory answer is: Is the difference really significant? Engine manufacturers tend to rightly be very conservative. They designed and tested their engines with conventional oil. It's the oil manufacturers and additive companies who have the obligation to demonstrate that their products meet the engine manufacturers specs. And most of them say it is fine to switch right away.



So go figure. Me? I wait 1,500 miles before changing to synthetic on my gas vehicles. I waited 14K (with hauling and towing) before switching over the Cummins. I guess I'm just a conservative sort of guy. Remember, conventional oils protect just as well as synthetics given proper drain intervals and operating temperatures. So unless you live in a very cold climate, there is really no advantage NOT to follow Cummin's recommendation, even though it might be baseless"... ... .



BMW,Mercedes & Corvette all come with Mobile1 synthetic as their factory fill, and yes they have done tests which support that the synthetic is superior. For instance the High Performance version of the Corvette voids your warranty unless you use Mobil1. The reason, when they came out with the high HP version of their regular corvette motor, they realized they made an engineering mistake, they couldn't fit a large enough radiator in the chasis in order to cool down the High HP motor. The only solution... . use Mobil1, which reduces the friction enough to keep the temps in proper specs. (this proves convential oils dosen't protect as well, more friction=more wear)

BMW tested a passenger car with Mobil1 which ran over 1 million miles, then was taken apart and had only minor wear.

Mercedes uses Mobil1 as the factory fill on not only gas motors, but also on their turbo diesels!

Dodge has now switched to synthetics as the factory fill in our rear ends and manual transmission cases.

Now there are other synthetics out there and I'm not hear to debate which one is best, but I do think it is proven that synthetics protect better.

 

[Steve Roseman]

MtnGoat,

I truly believe synthetic oils are better, but I use dino in my truck. If I worked the truck extremely hard or had extremely cold starts, I would use synthetics. I believe you should choose your oil based on your use.

I use synthetic in my wife's car and my demolition derby motors, they are worked on the high end of what they were designed for. I use my truck for a daily commute and occasionally tow 3 tons, I feel that's the low end of what it's designed for. I don't feel the benefit of synthetic would outweigh the cost.

Plus I actually enjoy changing my oil, it's quality time with my truck.

 

[DocStressor]

Elite-1 - I think most of the users of this board are aware that more and more automobile manufacturers use synthetic oil as the factory file. Yet others, including Cummins, specifically recommend using conventional oil during the break in period. I don't know why this is the case. I suggested that it might just be a superstition. On the other hand, different manufacturing processes are used with different engines. Manufacturing tolerances, initial clearances, cylinder bore honing patterns, and/or different ring material composition in certain engines might benefit from a little less heat dissipation during break in.



I just don't know. If I were a sensative new age kind of guy, I might say that I was conflicted. But I'm not that kind of guy, so I recommend doing whatever the manufacturer says.



BTW:



1. There are no hard data that I am aware of demonstrating that synthetic oils provide better initial protection (say for the first 3-5K miles) than good conventional oils. I actually once ran a multi-variant analysis test on a set of more than 100 different UOA results obtained with different engines and oils. The only positive correlation found was between wear metal levels and mileage (no surprise). There was no significant correlation between wear metals and any brand of oil. Breaking the data out by synthetic vs conventional oil still found no significant difference. Others on the board have reported the same thing. Even Blackstone Labs recently pointed this out:



http://www.blackstone-labs.com/newsletter.htm



2. European automobile manufacturers are now recommending synthetic oils because no conventional oils meet there standards for extended drains. BMW now says to leave the oil in for up to 2 years! 12,000 mile change intervals are currently the norm in Europe. Synthetics protect longer, not necessarily better except under certain extreme conditions (very low or very high operating temperatures).



3. Oil base stocks with the same viscosity range do not affect friction. The lower operating temperatures observed with synthetic oils are the result of the higher specific heat (or heat capacity) of PAOs vs conventional oils. That means that synthetics carry heat away from parts more efficiently. Friction modifying additives actually reduce the amount of heat generated in the oil film. This is not a property of the base oil itself. Interestingly, many conventional oils contain higher levels of friction modifiers than synthetics (with the exception of Redline). Mobil Delvac-1 for example is not friction modified.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Lee Weber



2. European automobile manufacturers are now recommending synthetic oils because no conventional oils meet there standards for extended drains. BMW now says to leave the oil in for up to 2 years! 12,000 mile change intervals are currently the norm in Europe. Synthetics protect longer, not necessarily better except under certain extreme conditions (very low or very high operating temperatures).

Like a lot of other things that are happening in the auto industry, this is one that seems to be more environmental then trying to protect my investment.

 

[fest3er]

Originally posted by Pit Bull
Like a lot of other things that are happening in the auto industry, this is one that seems to be more environmental then trying to protect my investment.

IMHO, if the oil retains its properties for two years, and the filtration is good enough, then leaving the oil in for two years will (in theory) yield the same resutls as changing it every 500 miles.

IMHO, changing the oil far more often than is needed is akin to leaving the water running on all the faucets in a house at all times, just so no gunk build up in the drain pipes, or turning the thermostat up to 90 in the winter (or down to 40 in the summer with A/C) and keeping the windows open just to avoid having the furnace/AC cycle on and off. It is akin to changing the air in the tires. It is akin to buying some neat new toys on every shopping trip, then tossing those new toys in the trash upon returning home.

But that's just my opinion. I'm no enviro-thug, but I believe in trying touse only what I have to, thus minimizing waste and minimizing the demand on natural resources.

But, as I said, it's just my own humble opinion. The world would be a dull place indeed if there were no differences of opinion.

Fest3er

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by fest3er

IMHO, if the oil retains its properties for two years, and the filtration is good enough, then leaving the oil in for two years will (in theory) yield the same results as changing it every 500 miles.

Fest3er

Fest, I understand what you are saying, but it's the "IF" and " IN THEORY" that concerns me. I know that if I change my oil or if you sample it at predetermined intervals then the "IF" goes away. I just think that the down side of the "IF" favors the manufacture not me the consumer. Because we all know that most vehicles will last past the warranty period even if you abuse them. Had a friend that bought a new BMW 740IL. Book said that you did not have to change oil until the computer on the dash told you to change. His came on after he drove it for 18K miles. That is not the mileage I want to make my first oil and filter change at. Oil and filters don't cost that much. Even the synthetics

 

[Elite1]

Pit Bull, "Like a lot of other things that are happening in the auto industry, this is one that seems to be more environmental then trying to protect my investment. "



Except in the case of the corvette(high performance model), the synthetics reduce the friction to the extent that the engine runs much cooler. You void the warranty if you use dyno oil.