TESTING REVEALS - "PRIME-LOC" NOT TO BLAME FOR INJECTION PUMP FAILURES!!!

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Evan, remember the pressure test done on the white 2500 4x2 12v Ram with the Prime-Loc system? The outlet pressure to the injection pump (with the Prime-Loc system installed) was about 16-17 psi (with a good fuel filter element). Removal of the Prime-Loc system and subsequent pressure tests revealed an increase in pressure to 27-28 psi with the OE fuel filter system (right where it should be). Remember? Kind of blows the theory of a marginal 24v lift pump out of the water.

Bottom Line: The Prime-Loc system reduces the pressure to your injection pump (on numerous vehicles tested... both 12v and 24v).

BillW, since you haven't answered my e-mail I will ask you here; I respectfully request a refund for my Prime-Loc system (including the PSID gauge... which is of no use to me without the Prime-Loc system). I have the original dated receipt (from Cummins NW/Renton, WA). I would be more than happy to ship the complete unit back to you for evaluation although, I DO NOT WANT IT BACK.

I'm curious to find out just what kind of customer service you really have.

[This message has been edited by John (edited 11-30-2000). ]

 

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Just to correct a wrong statement - pressure does matter in this situation. Any material vaporizes if the temperature and pressure are at the right conditions - if diesel is warm(>100F) and under a certain amount of vaccuum, it will vaporize (called cavitation) - not good for any pump.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT USE OF A PRIMELOC IS CAUSING THIS TO HAPPEN, BUT THAT THE STATEMENT THAT PRESSURE DOES NOT MATTER IS INCORRECT. Having said that, day-in and day-out I deal with fluid flows ranging in the Millions of Gallons per Day - I understand fluid flow, and I would not install anything in my fuel system that would cause anymore restriction than the stock filter (which really is pretty low).

Also remember that the outlet pressure of the filter (stock or otherwise) is not the same as the injection pump inlet pressure - there will be more pressure loss in the line from the filter to the injection pump (just like from the discharge of the lift pump to the filter).

 

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Right On John!

 

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OK, my extra gages and fittings arrived today, which allowed me to check my own pressure situation out. I now have 4 fuel pressure gages installed - 2 in the factory mounting head, and 2 in the Prime-Loc head. This arrangement will give a pretty complete view of the pressures (and pressure drops) in the entire run from the lift pump to the outlet line feeding the injector pump.

My results are with the engine idling. I see approx. 2. 5-3. 0 psig pressure drop from the lift pump outlet to the Prime-Loc inlet; zero psig pressure drop across the Prime-loc fuel filter (as it should be for a fairly new filter); another 2. 5-3. 0 psig pressure drop from the Prime-Loc outlet to the factory head outlet (to the injection pump); this gives me a total of 5. 0-6. 0 psig pressure loss across the system, which seems to match a previous post.

Conclusion: since a healthy lift pump (which mine is) is only putting out approx. 12-13 psig at idle, it is my opinion that a pressure loss of 5-6 psig (40%-50%) AT IDLE is not acceptable. Hence, my Prime-Loc system IS OFF my truck, permamently. I'm glad I only put on approx. 1800 miles with it on.

BillW from Ashland Tech: I'm sorry, but I cannot accept your argument that fuel pressure does not matter. As expensive and un-robust? as the VP44 is, one would want to absolutely minimize fuel pressure loss in the plumbing and fittings and give the VP44 as much of its design pressure as possible AT ITS INLET. Ultimately, pressure results in flow, and EXCESS flow to cool and lubricate is the only thing that keeps it alive.

I am also displeased at your suggestion that your customers (me included) who paid good money for this product need to start tinkering and removing the check valve. Worse yet is the notion that we COULD re-plumb the lines with -6 AN or -8 AN fittings and lines, at OUR expense. Ummm, I'm sorry, but I personally am not wasting another bloody $. 01 or any more time on this system, and like John from Enumclaw above suggested, how about Ash-Tec showing us just how good your customer service is and offering some level of reimbursement for those of us that got buffaloed - like maybe 50% of the kit price or something reasonable.

Regardless of the outcome of this particular situation, I for one will take away a valuable lesson from this: never again will I just buy an aftermarket accesory and just slap it on my truck without carefully examining the design and intended function of the part, especially those that are for the engine, drive-train, etc. where the potential for expensive damage is high.

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'99 24V 3500 QC, 4X2, 4. 10 LSD Dana 80

 

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Originally posted by Evan A. Beck:
Tracy,

Thanks for the info on that "undervalved" engine! #ad


Most, if not all, of the problems are occurring with the 24V trucks. Thanks fro your input though!

I guess that just really means that "overvalved" may not always be better???



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96 2500 4x4 Driftwood auto Waren 4x boards pyro,boost,trans temp on a piller mag hytec trans

 

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First of all, Thank You drag racer! #ad


I concur with everything drag racer stated in his latest post. The pressure data he compiled mirrors the findings of The PowerShop on numerous Prime-Loc equipped Rams, including mine. I would also be willing to accept a percentage refund of my (removed) Prime-Loc system, chaulking up the remainder as: "Lesson Learned" for the reason stated by drag racer.

 

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i too want to remove tne prime-loc from my truck but don't have the install instructions(bought truck used). is it just a screw off(spin) set up at the stock fuel filter mounting plate? thanks in advance

 

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Live and learn. The Prime-junk is not going back on my truck.

 

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I am just curious.
In reading the service manual, it states that the overflow valve to the tank opens at aprox. 14 PSI. It also says that about 70% of the fuel flow returns to the tank. If this is true, and looking at the posted pressures as well as my own testing which shows 9-12 PSI under various conditions and as little as 2-3 PSI under hard acceleration, how is any fuel being returned to the tank? My pressure rarely reaches the setpoint of the overflow valve (14 PSI).

 

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After sending a copy of this thread to Chuck Arnold (owner of The PowerShop) he responded to me by stating the tests performed by Ashland Technologies (Prime-Loc) were not actual (real world) road tests. I concur... I didn't see the minus 2. 2 psi numbers until I was driving. . and even at that, it was only at light to light/moderate throttle. #ad
With the Prime-Loc imposed restriction and more throttle applied, those minus readings we received could have been quite a bit worse!

 

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The evidence mounts and the silence from Ash-Tec continues..... meanwhile my Prime-Loc system sits quietly in the top of my garbage can this morning awaiting pick-up today. #ad


I think it goes without saying about the opinion those of us Prime-Loc owners will be expressing in the future about Ash-Tec and their product design and customer service/support.

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'99 24V 3500 QC, 4X2, 4. 10 LSD Dana 80

 

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. . do we know if dealers such as Cummins NW are still pushing this product?
gary

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'92 W250 LE 4x4, NV4500 5spd, Borgeson steering shaft, PrimeLoc

 

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Hey,if any of you are going to throw yours away send them to me instead,I'll pay freight. Sounds like the Prime-Loc may work good on a lawn mower.

 

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Originally posted by GLG:
. . do we know if dealers such as Cummins NW are still pushing this product?
gary

I was at Cummins NW in Renton,Wa. on Teusday 11-28-00 and they had one proudly on display in the parts section just as you come in the front door. Could not miss it.



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96 2500 4x4 Driftwood auto Waren 4x boards pyro,boost,trans temp on a piller mag hytec trans

 

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Ash-Tec, Inc. and the Power Shop are continuing to aggressively test the situation with the injection pump failures. We (Ash-Tec, Inc. ) have been informed of several more failures over the last week – NOT ONE OF THEM HAD A PRIME-LOC. I repeat, not one of the failed units were equipped with a Prime-Loc kit. Over 99% of all reported failures were not equipped with a Prime-Loc. Common sense would tell any rational person that perhaps THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE PRIME-LOC UNIT.

UNTIL TESTING IS COMPLETE, no one knows the true source of the problem. If you insist on blaming “Prime-Loc” for these failures, the true problem will never be found, and thus a solution never developed. We agree with Mr. Evan Beck that each of you should be patient with the situation and careful with your trucks. I would think that each one of you would be more interested in getting to the bottom of this by productively contributing to a solution, and not just shouting at the wind.

PLEASE BE PATIENT! We are conducting a multitude of tests through an independent tester, and must work within their time constraints. We are not about to pre-maturely rush to any conclusions. That would be unprofessional. Complete testing information will be posted as soon as it is complete. We will not be posting any responses to individual accusations. If you are truly concerned with your particular situation, then be big enough to call me directly at 570-875-2620.

We are sincerely concerned about each of your individual situations. This is why we continue to conduct testing that will reveal TRUE answers. Customer service is core to our business, and we hold it very dear. We are in fact quite insulted with the threatening accusations made toward Ash-Tec, Inc. and the “Prime-Loc” product on this web site.

And for those of you are so very concerned about our response time – I was involved in a car accident and am just now returning to work. Thanks for your concern…

Bill Wydra Jr.
Ash-Tec, Inc.



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Bill Wydra
Ash-Tec, Inc.

 

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Bill,

Sorry about the auto accident #ad
. I hope no one was seriously hurt. I tried to call a few minutes ago but being on the left coast I just missed... I'll try again tomorrow.

I'm sorry that some are a little quick to tar and feather the manufacturers but you know how it goes on any forum - Mob Rules #ad
. By the way, I called your company on 11/13 after reading this thread to get your take on all of this. I wish I had the name of the person that I talked too.

I personally have removed my Prime-Loc but I haven't thrown it away. As a matter of fact I still have a couple of replacement filters I wouldn't mind getting some use out of someday #ad
. I am just waiting for some resolution and assurance that the product won't contribute to an already weak link in the Dodge fuel system.

Please keep us posted of any further developements. Here, I'm afraid, no news is not good news.

Thanks,

Berserker



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99 2500 QC LB 4x4 Auto, Laramie SLT, driftwood. Cummins 24v w/ 275 HP injectors, Edge Products EZ & Banks Stinger Plus kit minus Ottomind, TST 10 level PM3, EGT and Boost gauges on A-Pillar mount, Prime-Location fuel filter kit (removed pending outcome of testing), Psychotty Air, MagHytec Diff and Trans covers, ConFerr front heavy duty axle truss w/skid plate, EZ Change oil drain plug, BFG 35x12. 50x16. 50 MT's, Tuff Country 5” stage II lift-kit, Rhino liner, Smittybilt nerf bars, Warn chrome Transformer brush guard w/Warn12000 winch, Tow Hooks, Xenon fender flares & Abbott Electronic Ratio Adapter. DTT's Valve Body & Torque Converter.

MyTruck

 

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Help. Can anyone tell me what stock parts I need, when I remove my Prime-Loc kit, to put it back in stock configuration?
The shop that did my install over a year ago, doesn't have the parts nor do they remember what I need.
Thanks, Terry

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Terry Tucker, Terre Haute, Indiana, 99 Quadcab, 5 sp,TST New Powermax2, RV injectors, Scotty's K&N setup, Ted J's complete 4 in exhaust(No muffler or resonator), 4 Rancho 9000 Shocks, G-Tech, BD exhaust brake, Mag-Hytec diff cover, PIAA driving/fog lights, Putnam Firehawk combo 5th wheel/Gooseneck hitch, Amsoil dual remote oil filters, All Amsoil fluids, Weston one piece Brush Guard, Linex liner. Dyno results: 334 hp, 859 ft lbs

 

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Terry,

Besides the fuel canister there are 2-long bolts (Shorter than the 7" Prime-Loc, probably 6 1/2") and one shorter 1" bolt. The two longer bolts go into the same place as the ones that hold the Prime-Loc mounting bracket in place and the third bolt will hold the dipstick in place.

I didn't go to this extent because I'm pretty confident that I'll be putting mine back on. Temporarily all I did was remove the 4 bolts that hold the mount for the spin-on filter & removed the "re-direct" mount that attached to the old filter location. There is a nut on the center of the factory mount that you turn to remove the "re-direct" mount attached below it. Then I put the factory canister back in the factory location.

I'm doing some of my own testing this weekend and I'll post results.

I did place a call with Bill from Ashland and he did call me back. We talked for about 20 minutes and I think that he is very knowledgable. I will try some of the things that he tested on my own truck. I will also take his advise and remove the check valve. I don't believe that it's necessary on these electronic pumps - it might have been on the older, mechanical pumps.

Berserker

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99 2500 QC LB 4x4 Auto, Laramie SLT, driftwood. Cummins 24v w/ 275 HP injectors, Edge Products EZ & Banks Stinger Plus kit minus Ottomind, TST 10 level PM3, EGT and Boost gauges on A-Pillar mount, Prime-Location fuel filter kit (removed pending outcome of testing), Psychotty Air, MagHytec Diff and Trans covers, ConFerr front heavy duty axle truss w/skid plate, EZ Change oil drain plug, BFG 35x12. 50x16. 50 MT's, Tuff Country 5” stage II lift-kit, Rhino liner, Smittybilt nerf bars, Warn chrome Transformer brush guard w/Warn12000 winch, Tow Hooks, Xenon fender flares & Abbott Electronic Ratio Adapter. DTT's Valve Body & Torque Converter.

MyTruck

[This message has been edited by Berserker (edited 12-07-2000). ]

 

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BillW (from Ashland Technologies) called me the other day (I gave him my phone number in an e-mail). That was a good start. I feel he really wants to resolve this however, I also let it be known that I have no interest in reinstalling my Prime-Loc system.

I, as well as every other TDR member know the OE 24v lift pump is a POS (even some of the new, replacement lift pumps are junk, right out of the box)... and located in the WRONG place t' boot. Shame on you Cummins! Maybe the Cummins engineers should enroll in Hot Rodding 101. #ad
Irrespective, this does not explain why the Prime-Loc system imposes a restriction on BOTH 24v AND 12v fuel delivery systems. How many times do I have to mention this?????????? It has been documented that (on average) the Prime-Loc system reduces fuel pressure by about 5 psi (average) on 24v Rams, and one 12v Ram experienced an 11 psi gain AFTER removing the Prime-Loc system. Noteworthy is that most of these Rams had new or nearly new fuel filters prior to pressure testing. This has been such a concern of mine that I elected to upgrade my gauges in favor of the $PA gauges so I can PERMANENTLY monitor my fuel pressure (without having a dozen separate gauges in my Ram). I am also currently assessing two different fuel delivery enhancements to resolve the lift pump (weak link) problem.

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John Treibel
'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps, Mag-Hytec diff. cover & trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, SPA gauges (3), Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake and TorqLoc, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass, Optima Yellow Tops, DD3s/DD Boost Module, Aeroquip AQP braided s/s fuel hoses, Banks High-Ram intake manifold and 14 cm2 turbine housing w/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , BD V10/Cummins hybrid TC & mod. trans. frt. pump, BD VB & PressureLoc, Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

Recycle Bin: Prime-Loc fuel filter relocation kit (due to flow restriction), Bosch 275s & VA CPC (upgraded to DD3s... WOW! what a difference!), '00 Dodge/Cummins valve cover (going back to my OE '98. 5 valve cover... tricked out though), VDO Vision gauges (upgraded to $PA gauges. . three of 'em... where's that when you need it? LOL)

 

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Okay,

Let's step back and figure this out.

1: There is a loss of pressure when the Prime-Loc is in the system.

2: Ashland agrees that there is a loss of pressure but states that the pressure doesn't matter it's the amount of fuel that matters.

3: Ashland says that their testing shows the same amount of fuel being delivered to the injection pump either with or without their system in place.


Let's think about these three statements. I think that both parties agree on item number one. How about item number two? Can an EXPERT out there tell me which one is more important - PSI or volume?

If it's PSI then we would definitely have a problem running through the Prime-Loc. If it's volume then I wouldn't think that there's a problem. And if it's volume then can't we simply perform our own testing to validate item number three?

Just trying to form my own opinion... .....

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99 2500 QC LB 4x4 Auto, Laramie SLT, driftwood. Cummins 24v w/ 275 HP injectors, Edge Products EZ & Banks Stinger Plus kit minus Ottomind, TST 10 level PM3, EGT and Boost gauges on A-Pillar mount, Prime-Location fuel filter kit (removed pending outcome of testing), Psychotty Air, MagHytec Diff and Trans covers, ConFerr front heavy duty axle truss w/skid plate, EZ Change oil drain plug, BFG 35x12. 50x16. 50 MT's, Tuff Country 5” stage II lift-kit, Rhino liner, Smittybilt nerf bars, Warn chrome Transformer brush guard w/Warn12000 winch, Tow Hooks, Xenon fender flares & Abbott Electronic Ratio Adapter. DTT's Valve Body & Torque Converter.

MyTruck