Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) testing the VP44

[Marco]

Agades,

I don't think it's the VP.

I think that because you say the engine runs fine with the VP "hotwired" but like crap when conected to the ECM.



The hotwired VP runs fine? Ok then the pump is fine!

You have to search somewhere else for the root of your problem.

If the VP was bad, then it would idle bad also hotwired... .



That's why they use the hotwire test! To find out if it's the pump or something else.



I would suggest to trace down the wires to pin 6&7 of the VP. The pump can suck up to 30 Amps. If any conection or wire isn't in top shape... What about the relay in the PDC?



Marco

 

[HVAC]

VP Tester

SP_Longhorn,



The tester is a tad over $300 at Cummins. It will plug into the back of the pump once you've removed the connector from the wiring harness. Then you connect the two alligater clips to the battery and attempt to start the engine. As you can see, this superceeds all the rest of the electronics on the truck. If the engine starts, the pump is OK. You have a high idle toggle to check pump response to commands.



Some folks get themselves a pump connector and make up their own tester.

 

[Agades]

Originally posted by Marco

Agades,

I don't think it's the VP.

I think that because you say the engine runs fine with the VP "hotwired" but like crap when conected to the ECM.



The hotwired VP runs fine? Ok then the pump is fine!

You have to search somewhere else for the root of your problem.

If the VP was bad, then it would idle bad also hotwired... .



That's why they use the hotwire test! To find out if it's the pump or something else.



I would suggest to trace down the wires to pin 6&7 of the VP. The pump can suck up to 30 Amps. If any conection or wire isn't in top shape... What about the relay in the PDC?



Marco

very good point

I thought it to be a bit fishy as well

the only thing is I cant test my 59 mph stumble with this test as I cant drive it, only idle



I did test the voltage in the power wire to the pump (pin #7)

the voltage stays constant at 13. 8 to 13. 9



I did not test #6



how do I test the relay ?

and what is the PDC?



I already ordered a pump:{



I guess Im getting a little impatient

Ive only been fighting this since December

 

[HVAC]

Pump Testing

The PDC is the "Power Distribution Center". It's on the drivers side fender and under the hood. The easiest thing to do regarding the relay is swap it with another. I would think the relay would either 1. work, or 2. not work. No in between IOW. But then I am not an electrcian.

 

[HeberRam]

Not a electrician?

Nowel... All this time I though "HVAC" stood for " High Voltage Action Character"



Steve

 

[kaffine krazed]

P0500 no vehical speed sensor is refering to the sensor in the diff not an engine speed sensor. It is used by the ECM for cruise control and atleast on some modle years also limit max speed of the truck.



I've seen relays work intermitantly. Some will have high resistance across the contacts caused by arcing. Some when the coil gets hot it's resistance increases not allowing enough power through and the relay goes back to it's non energized position. I would swap the relay.



When you tested for power at the VP-44 did you back probe power and ground at the pump while running the truck on the ECM?



What diag tools do you have access to? Do you have an O-scope? Scan tool?



If you have a scan tool monitor the load % value at idle with the truck running on the ECM.

 

[Agades]

I did back probe the power wire (#7 ) while running with the ecm

I didnt back probe the ground however

my PM 3 is grounded on that wire right now and is working very well

does that mean anything ?????







I will have to go to the dealer and get the scan tool and check that load % value



I will also see if they have a relay

which I highly doubt they will

 

[Agades]

the relay didnt change anything



my pump just showed up



Is this load % worth looking into before I install the pump??



any tricks or things to be careful of when installing the pump??



I am going to do it myself because there is no one in town I can trust



SERVICE is of no meaning around here



we have a bosch dealer in town and when I asked them about a VP 44 they looked at me and said

"We aint never worked on none of dem before"

" We cant even get one of dem dar pumps"

" Whatcha want one of dem fer?"

 

[HVAC]

VP44

I don't think Bosch has released the electronics for pump shops to test the VP44. The pump stands are out there, but nobody is able to rebuild and test the pumps yet. So your local shop hasn't done much with them yet.



Note the key that fits in the key way on the pump shaft is specific to each pump. It provides a measured offset.

 

[JohnE]

Agades;

Did you check with Zip's in St. Cloud? They should have working knowledge on the VP44.

-John

 

[kaffine krazed]

From what I got talking with Steve? at J&S during may madness Bosch has released the computer to test the VP-44 but it doesn't work.



Checking the load will just tell you if the ECM is seeing a change in engine load and how much but it wont tell you why.



I would send the injectors out to be tested while replacing the VP-44 since you are half way to having the injectors out anyways.



When replacing the pump remove the cover to gain access to the injection pump pully nut and take the the cover off of the starter relay and bump the engine over until the keyway is at the top.



Going back in use engine oil on the O-ring and gear case.

 

[Agades]

Originally posted by kaffine krazed





I would send the injectors out to be tested while replacing the VP-44 since you are half way to having the injectors out anyways.

I just put in the DD 2's two weeks ago

they didnt change the 50 - 60 mph stumble

but the bad idle wasnt as noticeable before the install



Hohn also noticed a rough idle with this batch of 2's



Im hoping the pump will take care of some of that



but Im not going to do anything with them until the pump



One thing at a time otherwise I wont know exactly what caused the problem in the first place



after the pump , if it still idles crappy , maybe a set of edm's

 

[Agades]

some one send some hot weather up here



temps dropped to between 60 - 70 deg

and stumble is not bad



stumble is only bad at below 40 or above 75



I havent installed the pump yet because I want to do it when its acting up



I did however install a bigger fuel line kit that Rod Snaith and Scotty put together and really turned out nice



dont know what it did to fuel press yet because my elec guage died again ( I know the sender died because I used the dealers guage to test it before) let you know when I can get the dealers guage again on monday



I wanted to do this before the new pump in case any junk were to get in the line during the install it would go through the bad pump not the good one

 

[2-ND TIME]

VP-44 need wave forms for pins.

Looked at this yesterday and didn't copy the secand and third pages for info. so back at it today. I have been looking at the wave forms on the 7 different pins and they don't seem to be very good for what I can tell. If anyone is interested I can fax them to them. I am looking for the proper wave forms that are required to opperated this pump if anyone has this info????Going to talk to a German speaking friend this morning to see if this is the web site that may help. (www.tucholka.pl/diagnostyka/vp44/vp-44.htm) This is the kind of info I think that Iam looking for??? If you know of the correct site please post.

 

[P Madrid]

Word of warning for those who are doing testing by probing connector pins. The female connectors on the VP44 harness connector (Happy Face) can spread to the point that they no longer have good contact. This is usually found when the engine runs rough, you have good fuel supply pressure and the engine runs fine with the break out test harness. Cummins is coming out with a probe tester to see if the female connector has spread. In the mean time, I broke the back pin connector of an extra core and made my own testing probe by melting the pins out of the plastic. How do they spread, it happens when people go probing into the connector or they jam the connector into the VP44. Hard to believe but I have repair plenty of these connectors.



The ECM looks at several speed sensors: Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS); Engine Speed Sensor (ESS, crank speed); Engine Positioning Sensor (EPS, cam speed); Calculated VP44 Engine speed, done by the electronics in the VP44.



When ever you unplug the harness off the VP44 and turn the key on, it will log several faults. I'm not familiar with the Dodge codes, I only work with Cummins Insite.



On the average when the engine runs fine with the break out test hardness, the problems lies some where else. Too many VP44 pumps have been changed for harness problems.



Pablo

 

[HVAC]

Too Many Incorrectly Condemned VP44

Then there are the VP44's that are changed in error. Like the dealer in Twin Falls Idaho that condemned the pump and blamed the vehicle owner for the problem. Well the pump was fine and another dealer, one with some technical expertise found a bad injector. Been fine ever since. Then there is the dealer in Napa Ca that said the pump was toast and the total for repairs would be $10,000!!! Cummins fixed it for just over $500 bucks without a pump change.



What would happen if a doctor misdiagnosed an illness? Sir, you need a heart transplant. Later they tell you it wasn't your heart, just some kidney stones. Somebody should be subject to punative damages! Malpractice should apply to Dodge like it does to others. You shouldn't get paid for making mistakes. I'm glad we don't have airline pilots with the same degree of accuracy of Dodge mechanics.



Appologies to BOB4x4.

 

[Agades]

pablo,

is there any way I can test the signal from these sensors?



anything between 1000 and 1600 rpm my truck is doing the fuel /defuel cycle about 3 - 4 times a second ( only with load )



then between 50 and 60 mph in 5th gear it hesitates and bucks but not usually rythmic





I believe the bad idle is partly the injectors and all the other sensors working out of sync with each other( thats why it idles ok with out all the other sensors giving info)

 

[Agades]

Re: Too Many Incorrectly Condemned VP44

Originally posted by HVAC

Then there are the VP44's that are changed in error. Like the dealer in Twin Falls Idaho that condemned the pump and blamed the vehicle owner for the problem. Well the pump was fine and another dealer, one with some technical expertise found a bad injector. Been fine ever since. Then there is the dealer in Napa Ca that said the pump was toast and the total for repairs would be $10,000!!! Cummins fixed it for just over $500 bucks without a pump change.



What would happen if a doctor misdiagnosed an illness? Sir, you need a heart transplant. Later they tell you it wasn't your heart, just some kidney stones. Somebody should be subject to punative damages! Malpractice should apply to Dodge like it does to others. You shouldn't get paid for making mistakes. I'm glad we don't have airline pilots with the same degree of accuracy of Dodge mechanics.



Appologies to BOB4x4.

very good point



Some people just dont feel it necessary to take responsibility for their actions



Doctors - I had a staff infection and my doctor gave me the wrong pills and I fought that infection for 2 years because of it

I never sought compensation for it either and wont

Im not going to make another lawyer rich



I have accepted the fact that I have VERY BAD LUCK



dodge dealers arent the only ones messing up



Accountability - very important

 

[2-ND TIME]

Cryslurrrrs dogs

This is one truck that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy It came withe excessive toein and they couldn't diagnose that till I told them what was wrong with it. That cost me way over $4500. 00++ The engine bucking has also been from new You know from the factory and have had NO satisfaction from the DEALER at all The diesel tech told me that 130 RWHP out of a 235 engine is "ABOUT RIGHT'" Can you believe that :-{} :-{} at the risk of sounding ????????I have been rigfht all along I can even here 0. 002 extra exhaust valve clatter. rather surprising to me. So have had to listen to professed knowledgeable people all along. please read the ?? one under 911 and read the rest of the story. To steal a very good phase. I have phone bills to prove the years of fustration I have had with this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I may get some where this weekend. +++++++++++++++

 

[P Madrid]

Agades, there is no method of checking the sensor with a multimeter. I use Cummins Insite software to monitor the signals. On the average they are all showing a few rpms of each other. When one is going or has gone bad you can see a huge difference in their individual rpms. I'm not sure if there are other scanner tools, other than the Dodge scanner, that have the capability of looking at these at the same time.



Pablo