Testing the Wagner Combination (M4s and Marco's ECM)

[Hohn]

So a neat box shows up today at my porch.



I swap ECMs without much fanfare and go for a spin.



Response is, in fact, quite improved. Overall, though I expected a little more SOP power. Then I remembered that I had the WG enabled and it popped open at 25psi. Suffice it to say that at 25psi, you're not burning all the fuel that M4s are giving you.



A flick of a needle valve later, the WG is disabled and full boost comes up. Then, something like this:



"GOD PLEASE LET MY CLUTCH HOLD THIS"

"MAN THAT TURN IS COMING UP FAST"



Let's say that the power at 36psi is quite a bit more than at 25psi. Also, before EGTs would amble up to 1300 or so. Now they race PAST 1500!



The pedal is a little touchy, but not unreasonably so. It IS enough to make me wonder if I can keep my clutch alive even for the few days I will have this test unit. Towards that end, I opened up the gate again to keep boost under 26psi.



It's nice to now that with my WG mods and turbo porting, my WG can bypass enough to keep this thing under 25psi.



Finally, this ECM was labelled as a "special", and I'm assuming that it's setup for a Comp. As a result, this may not be as good as a regular catcher would be.





Also, for the first time, I laid rubber in a straight line on dry smooth pavement. Grabbed 4th and off I went. Nice.



I could see me stopping the power with just an ECM and M4s. THE WAGNER COMBINATION IS AWESOME.



One last note. This combo needs more charger. Stock is not an option--I highly doubt a DZ is really enough, and a Schwitzer-based charger is probably what you need. I'm thinking a Cool Twist, HTB2 or B1 class.



There's easily another 30hp or so in this combo with a better charger.





FYI-- this is on my truck, an 02 HO 4x4 with slightly modded stock charger.



Justin

 

[Luke Warmwater]

Too bad you can't also tap the wire and try a Comp...

 

[Fishin Guide]

Send it to me. I have the M4's and the DDUFM on board. Along with my PDR35, I can give you some good comparison numbers.



Always happy to help out with my part. :-laf



Dave

 

[rivercat]

do go on about your modded turbo and how you did it and how you disable the WG



and how was the smoke down low!!!

 

[TORQUE THIS]

I am running an HX-40 from HTT. I also have (Massdiesel) 180 HP EDM's w/ the caTCHER, no more box and pump wire. Smoke down low is not a problem as long as you go easy on the pedal. Lay into it a bit and it smokes pretty good.

 

[Graphic man]

i wouldn't mind trying that ECM my self

 

[Hohn]

do go on about your modded turbo and how you did it and how you disable the WG



and how was the smoke down low!!!

Smoke down low? Depends on how you drive it. It CAN be downright VICIOUS. (or was that deLICIOUS? hehe). With the Catcher and M4s, I can roll into and and not have smoke. Or I can get ahead of it and kill fauna.



It seems with this setup that there is rarely a "puff" of smoke. It's either clean or nasty, with very little in between. Clean isn't that hard to get, and nasty CERTAINLY isn't!



So far, even at 36psi of boost, there's a pretty healthy trail of smoke that never leaves. The turbo just can't cut it.



On the turbo mods-- all I did was open up the exhaust manifold outlet and the turbine housing inlet. There are "humps" in the corners that reduce flow. So I cleaned them up and deep port-matched it. I carved out the ports to match the shape of the gasket that goes between the turbo and manifold. From the factory, this leaves a LOT to be desired.



I then drilled through the divider wall between the scrolls so that the WG would work on all 6 cylinders.



Finally, I opened up the hole that the WG flapper covers as large as I could and still have the flapper seal. This is very important, because if it leaks, you will have a lot of smoke and crappy performance.



So my housing is probably somewhere between 13 and 14 flow wise. Nothing real significant at all.



OH-- and I have a needle valve on my WG boost line. If I close it, the WG is essentially disabled.



Justin

 

[rivercat]

so what can one do with a elbow setup take the line off the elbow so it never sees any pressure?

or better yet leave it on and clamp it shut with hemianstats Sp?

 

[jaybigboy34]

Well Hohn, are you going to keep the catcher, or run a comp box?

 

[Hohn]

I can't keep it. It's not mine! So it will go back to Bob at some point very soon.



Honestly, with M4 injectors, I can't see a need for more fuel right now. My turbo is not even close to up to the task. This thing still hazes at 36-37psi or so.



My driving experience with Comps didn't impress me as much as the Catcher. On 5x5, the Comp seems to give lots of smoke, but not much GO until the turbo spool. While the Catcher also smokes, it's also making POWER as it does, not waiting on the turbo.



Granted, my Comp experience was in Mgoncalves' truck, and he had different sticks than I have, but I wasn't overly impressed with the Comp. That, and Edge's reliability doesn't seem to be so hot.



I think the the Catcher and M4s is enough fuel for my purposes, and even with a different (better) charger, I can't really see need for much more fuel. This HO VP doesn't have much more to give anyway.



I supposed I could always add a TST to the mix later down the road, but I'm not convinced that tapping the wire is worth the extra 50-60hp or so that it might give on an HO with injectors this big.



If I want more power down the road (pardon the pun), then I will probably spray something (nitrous, water/meth, propane, LOX, whatever).



Yes, the Comp is probably better bang for the buck-- you get timing and fuel for $600 or so. The Catcher runs $500 for just timing and other stuff.



Right now, I'm far more inclined to run the Catcher and nothing else.



Tapping the wire is for guys whose injectors are too small

 

[Hohn]

so what can one do with a elbow setup take the line off the elbow so it never sees any pressure?

or better yet leave it on and clamp it shut with hemianstats Sp?

Hemostats generally won't clamp the WG line tight enough to block all air pressure.



You could take the line off, but then you would have to plug the elbow somehow, or take out the elbow and put in a 1/8" NPT pipe plug. I did that once-- it was very responsive. It was a good setup for my smaller injectors, but with the M4s, I was afraid I'd risk grenading the charger if I plugged it.



I took out the elbow and plumbed in some grease gun hose, then attached a needle valve and the elbow to THAT. That gives me a little bit of adjustability, but the needle valve isn't precise enough to dial in a certain amount of boost. You can basically just block or unblock the WG.



justin

 

[Boondocker]

Tapping the wire is for guys whose injectors are too small

Hey, I resemble that remark! Hmm, must be why I just bought a Comp to go with my new Mach 1. 6 and SBC Con OFE



My decision is to go with stock-like driving characteristics and power-on-demand control rather than the most power I can make. My arbitrary goal was 400 HP and all the torque that qoes with it. I should be close. That should be plenty to get me around town and my 5th wheel down the highway. I might need a 14cm turbo housing to keep my EGTs where I want in the long run. In the meantime, I can manage it with my right big toe and my right pointy finger



My wife said: you're not going to make the truck so I can't drive it, are you? I said: of course not dear (that's what 1x1 is for )



I'm scared to tap the wire, but that day will come.



Keep up the good analytical work Justin, it helps me think this stuff through to figure out what's best for me.



Neil

 

[Diesel Freak]

This HO VP doesn't have much more to give anyway.

you would be suprised at how much fuel can be squeazed out of a HO VP

Tapping the wire is for guys whose injectors are too small

You say that now... .

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Hey, I resemble that remark! Hmm, must be why I just bought a Comp to go with my new Mach 1. 6 and SBC Con OFE



My decision is to go with stock-like driving characteristics and power-on-demand control rather than the most power I can make. My arbitrary goal was 400 HP and all the torque that qoes with it. I should be close. That should be plenty to get me around town and my 5th wheel down the highway. I might need a 14cm turbo housing to keep my EGTs where I want in the long run. In the meantime, I can manage it with my right big toe and my right pointy finger



My wife said: you're not going to make the truck so I can't drive it, are you? I said: of course not dear (that's what 1x1 is for )



I'm scared to tap the wire, but that day will come.



Keep up the good analytical work Justin, it helps me think this stuff through to figure out what's best for me.



Neil

Neil, you have much the same setup and power I should have - which is considerably more than needed 99. 9% of the time. My wire is tapped, and with my 1. 6 F1's, the Comp is mostly run down on 1x1 just to DEfuel in around town/empty driving to provide better smoke control - yup, to actually turn the fuel/power DOWN!



I, personally, prefer the apparently greater accelleration and throttle control my setup delivers than what Hohn describes here - it's totally predictable and easily controlled in virtually ALL situations, for me, and unsuspecting other who might drive my truck. I have ALL the power I could reasonably use or want, even when towing - and it's totally predictable under ALL road and weather conditions.



Tap that wire, and get more potential power for the rare occasions when you want/need it, and even better overall throttle control...

 

[Hohn]

OK, I've thought about this even more (my wife says I tend to overanalyze, but I'm not *exactly* sure what she means, lol).



I may lean away from the catcher in favor of a comp. The whole reason I got rid of my EZ is that it wasn't adjustable in a convenient way. I also wanted something that would tap the wire if I so chose.



Thanks for the Catcher test, Bob, but I think I'll take the Comp.



jlh

 

[tractorface]

Thread Hijack

Ok, I have stock injectors and my truck smokes like a monster. Lots of power and plenty of boost. Smoke is hard to control unless I set comp on sublevel 1 or 2. I think the HRVP is a big part of the reason my truck smokes so bad with stock sticks. I am wondering if a set of Mach injectors will help reduce the smoke a little. Sounds crazy but I wonder if they would help.



On 4x5 this morning and had to hammer it to merge... ... ..... looked behind me and entire road was gone. Nothing but smoke. Merged safely though :-laf

I like what I have read about the Catcher but am afraid to use one because of the smoke issue. At least with the comp I can turn it off and only puff Lots of power also, even with the lag down low.

Enjoyed reading Hohn's well written review for both the Mach 4's and the Catcher. Thanks

 

[rivercat]

so whats next hohn a dzilla to finish the wagner combo or would a dz be too small for the 6speed setup

 

[Hohn]

What's next? Well, I'm forgoing the DZ in favor of some yet-to-be developed super turbo that spools instantly, makes efficient boost to 50psi, and costs $100.



Seriously, though-- I think a 6-speed means that I can run a larger charger than Bob does. I'm leaning towards any one of the BW-Schwitzer derivatives (Phat Shaft, Cool Twist, Super B, etc).



Oh, and I've decided against the Comp. TST baby!

 

[hemijustin]

What's next? Well, I'm forgoing the DZ in favor of some yet-to-be developed super turbo that spools instantly, makes efficient boost to 50psi, and costs $100.

put down for one of those please... . ill pay cash :-laf



ive been thinking about a catcher too but im not going to worry about it. . untell my turbo comes. and i have a new clutch and big injectors... then ill think about adding one something that fuels down low...

 

[rivercat]

want a b1 non to be found new and wary of used. m4s are first pending funds though

wish the was a GOOD thread on the intricate blue chip products I like the FMS lots of settings, but HIGH$