Thank you Kent Kroeker.... DW is really gone.

[AndyMan]

Agreed. That's what I was originally going to do, then after talking to Boardman, alignment guy, skyjacker, various and sundry other people, etc... . I decided to have the alignment guy have first stab at it. He is going to dig deeper today free of charge. We'll see where that goes.

I've still got shocks on the way, blocks are next.

 

[SHyans]

For $110 bucks it's worth it don't ya think?

And a whole five minutes on your part to slap on. Put mine on Saturday.

Ordered Wed, got em Friday... Thanks Greg.

 

[Duck]

Ordered Wed, got em Friday, installed them in about 10 minutes.



SOP-o-Meter shows that the blocks did indeed calm the front end down a bit. Fortunately, I do not suffer from chronic DW. I had it 2-3 times in this truck, due to a loose bolt (all in the same night), but the leveling kit did made the front end feel lighter over bumps (compared to stock). The blocks are making a noticeable improvement.



Worth $110? You betcha. Besides, they're going to look tight next to the full Kore suspension that I will someday purchase.

 

[JonKing]

I have posted several times concerning "Death Wobble", but nobody seems to take my solution seriously. The valving in the steering box itself malfuctions and will cause DW. It is under warranty and Dodge is aware of the problem on the 03 & 04 trucks.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I have posted several times concerning "Death Wobble", but nobody seems to take my solution seriously. The valving in the steering box itself malfuctions and will cause DW. It is under warranty and Dodge is aware of the problem on the 03 & 04 trucks.

I think since the steering box is so far removed from the dymnamics of the axle and tires it most likely would not cause DW. But a loose one surely could contribute to it. Anything lose might contribute.



Can you elaborate?

 

[SHyans]

I have posted several times concerning "Death Wobble", but nobody seems to take my solution seriously. The valving in the steering box itself malfuctions and will cause DW. It is under warranty and Dodge is aware of the problem on the 03 & 04 trucks.

Where are you hiding your "several postings"? Have you changed your screen name since then? I'd love to read them.

Thanks

 

[AndyMan]

I would love to read more about that as well. I've read everything I can find on DW. This is a new subject to me. I'm open to trying anything.



Co worker and I just went for a ride. I hit the same freeze joint that set off DW this morning (70mph, under hard acceleration). Sure enough, it kicked DW off again. I thought he was going to cry before I got the truck under control. This happened on the way back to the alignment shop. I tried to get the alignment guy to go for a ride so he could experience it, but after hearing my co-workers account of the experience, he declined. We'll see what happens.

 

[JonKing]

I believe the last time I posted about DW was on DTR, and my username is LIT UP and also on DTW under the same name. I had a 03 HEMI 2500 4X4 and after replacing tie rods, ball joints, & track bar I still had the Death Wobble. I went to a different dealership and the owner told me his demo a 03 CUMMINS 2500 4x4 did the same thing and it was the steering box. They replaced mine and it cured the problem. I also ran 315's with daystar spacers. Shortly after this another freind of mine had the same problem with a 04 CUMMINS 2500 4X4, no lift and stock tires, again it was the steering box. Once the steering box is replaced, you will notice how much tighter and responsive the truck is. This is from experience and not guessing. All three trucks had the boxes replaced at HENDERSON CHRYSLER, in Aransas Pass, Texas. I'm not saying this is the only thing that will cause the problem, but if I have the problem on my 05, it will be the first place I will look. Please check out the other posts, I have had guys say it's tire pressure to what phase the moons' in.

 

[NVR FNSH]

Quote:



Here's my guess at what Kent meant - "deflection" may be reference to the suspension travel. The sway bar transfers suspension deflection from one side of the axle to the other. If you hit a bump/pothole with only one wheel, the sway bar tries to make the other end of the axle move as well. Especially if you have the bar end bushings tightened well, or have polyurethane bushings installed.



This function of the sway bar is what keeps roll under control. But, if your truck has tendencies for the DW - thankfully, I don't think mine does (at least I haven't experienced it) - the sway bar can produce a bit of "roll oscillation" in the front axle. Kent referred to this as "lighting off the DW".



I've sensed this when hitting bumps and holes with one wheel only, or when in a bumpy turn, especially since I have the sway bar end bushings over tightened a bit. Polyurethane replacement bushings will accentuate this even more. That's why off-road guys like to disconnect the sway bar when they're running hard. It lets each side of the axle move independently, without the "cross-lateral deflection".



How'd I do, Kent?

John

From #27 by DHamlin - "The tire was going left to right about 3 inches a side. " His description of what he saw by sticking his head out the window during a DW incident. I've observed the same thing during DW.



DW is the wheels oscillating about the steering axis, not the wheel/axle oscillating vertically (axle tramp). The swaybar does not affect the oscillations about the steering axis.



I'm intrigued by the post about the steering gear valving causing DW. I don't know squat about steering gear boxes but I'm guessing the valving inside the box can not react anywhere near fast enough to cause DW.



Brian

 

[JSellers]

From #27 by DHamlin - "The tire was going left to right about 3 inches a side. " His description of what he saw by sticking his head out the window during a DW incident. I've observed the same thing during DW.



DW is the wheels oscillating about the steering axis, not the wheel/axle oscillating vertically (axle tramp). The swaybar does not affect the oscillations about the steering axis.



I'm intrigued by the post about the steering gear valving causing DW. I don't know squat about steering gear boxes but I'm guessing the valving inside the box can not react anywhere near fast enough to cause DW.



Brian

Brian,



I think you're probably correct. Although I've never experienced the DW, with the way caster affects the heavy Rams, I'm guessing it IS a wobble around the steering axis. Did you ever push a grocery cart with one of the front casters out of whack? That's what I imagine the DW is.



I was only trying to give a thought on what Kroeker may have alluded to. Any sort of shock to the front axle could set of the oscillation (or DW). My truck only wanders, but if conditions are right, I would think any of these trucks could start the DW, especially if more components are worn (ball joints, control arm bushings, tie rod ends, etc. ) I think Kent's reference to "cross-lateral deflection" was only with regard to the sway bar action. There could be a possibility of this starting the DW too, if conditions are conducive.



Who knows, maybe there's no solution except having all components with "showroom tolerances". I know plenty of people sure complain about the steering problems. The original owner of my truck had a good term for it. Although he was reassuring me that it wouldn't "ditch dive", he did warn me that you had to pay attention to the steering, otherwise you might find yourself in it.



Hope this helps,

John

 

[JeepinDoug]

I also don't see how adding swaybar drops will change steering geometery, enough to correct DW.



Always... ... DW is a result of improper steering geometery... . period.

Improper steering geometery includes caster, camber and toe-in.

Any one of these specs could be out of tolerance by wear, improper adjustment or missing components.

Almost always DW is coming from a small amount of many of these out-of-tolerance conditions. One improper setting will exasterbate another. Larger tires throw alot more rotating mass into the situation exponentially increasing vunerability to DW.



Example;

Lifted truck without correcting the caster angle, steering off-center and a wheel that has chucked a balance weight.

This is a prime example of DW in your future.

As these specs are only out a small amount they slowly wear on components; such as tires, ball-studs and link bushings.



Steering stabilizers (shock style) are baidaids and only hide the problem, it's still there. A proper geometery will have no need for a steering shock, though they do have their place on rocky unpaved roads.



Fixing DW is a long tedious progression of eliminating variables, starting with the easiest fixes first.

Check wheel balance, check ball joints, check ball-studs, check caster, check toe-in, check wheel bearings, etc, etc. Camber is stationary unless the vehicle has been in an accident or you like to jump your truck.



Lifting the truck's front axle will always change the caster angle to a lesser angle greatly influencing DW. Correcting with too much possitive caster will cause excessive tire wear.



All these little nuances add up quickly compounding wear and improper geometery.



There is a possibilty that the sway-bar drops could change the effective load to the axle ends but it's about as effective as a cam changing the compression ratio of an engine, very slight noticable difference.

 

[Yo Hoot]

I also don't see how adding swaybar drops will change steering geometery, enough to correct DW.



Example;

Lifted truck without correcting the caster angle, steering off-center and a wheel that has chucked a balance weight.

This is a prime example of DW in your future.

As these specs are only out a small amount they slowly wear on components; such as tires, ball-studs and link bushings.



Steering stabilizers (shock style) are baidaids and only hide the problem, it's still there. A proper geometery will have no need for a steering shock, though they do have their place on rocky unpaved roads.



Fixing DW is a long tedious progression of eliminating variables, starting with the easiest fixes first.

Check wheel balance, check ball joints, check ball-studs, check caster, check toe-in, check wheel bearings, etc, etc. Camber is stationary unless the vehicle has been in an accident or you like to jump your truck.



Lifting the truck's front axle will always change the caster angle to a lesser angle greatly influencing DW. Correcting with too much possitive caster will cause excessive tire wear.



There is a possibilty that the sway-bar drops could change the effective load to the axle ends but it's about as effective as a cam changing the compression ratio of an engine, very slight noticable difference.

It was mentioned before, lifting this suspension has little effect on caster because it was designed to maintain caster within suspension travel. I believe it has to do with the physical length of the arms and where they are attached that allows this. Just like they are able to design-in certain control into IFS by designing the upper control arms different than the lower control arms, as well as where the mounting locations are.



Why do the blocks make such a huge difference? I'm not sure but I think it has to do the initial angle of the attach point at the frame and at the axle. If you draw a line through the attach points, on a lifted truck the angle is more severe without the drop blocks. Installing the blocks puts the line back closer to stock. Somebody engineered the original geometry for a reason.



All I can say is now after a month, for whatever reason, it drastically changed the way this front axle handles those jolts that used to scare me. It also makes a difference in overall ride.



Need more people to back me up with what I am observing. Whether you make your own or get the Kore blocks, we need to show the naysayers that for whatever reason, they do work.



Again... I'm not calling them the cure all for trucks that have beat front ends. My truck has 22,000 miles on it. Raising the front AFTER installing 35" tires is what got me into trouble initially. Now I have a great setup that looks awesome... 35" tires, Kore springs, the blocks, Bilstien shocks and no DW.

 

[JeepinDoug]

A quality lift kit that uses different link arms will have correct geometery or atleast adjustability built in for correcting caster. A leveler spring puck alone will not offer the adjustability.

I'm not familiar with Kore's leveling kit, maybe it includes an eccentric bushing for caster.

I do believe that your DW is masked but I'm not so sure it's gone. I'm just afraid it may rear it's ugly head in the near future.

Maybe Kore has an explaination why the DW is gone.



YH, I'm curious why you didn't make the drop-blocks for the sway bar, surely it would have cost alot less money.

 

[Yo Hoot]

YH, I'm curious why you didn't make the drop-blocks for the sway bar, surely it would have cost alot less money.

I had no reason to believe they would make any difference. I had talked to Kent after purchasing the leveling kit and installing it. At the time they (drop blocks) did not exist. A few months went by and I continued to post about my DW experiences. I recieved a call a couple of months ago from Kore. It was a woman asking me how I liked their products. She explained about the new drop blocks and the price. I declined. A couple of weeks later, I assume after Kent read some of my posts, he called me personally to talk about our trucks and the stabilizer bar drop blocks. He explained that they might be the key to my problem. I said no I wasn't interested in paying $110 for a couple of spacer blocks I could make myself. He said no... I'll send them out free of charge for me to try.



The rest is in all my previous postings. Please take my word that this is not a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deal here. I purchased all of my Kore kit full price like everyone else and I did it after having a terrible experience with the Revtek spacers. I researched using pure spring lift, basically going with Kore stuff because all my research pointed to it for value and performance. I never talked to anyone affiliated with Kore products until I called to actually order the Leveling kit. It just so happened Kent took my order. We had a very long conversation about trucks, suspensions and death wobble issues.



Since then I talked with him an a couple of other occasions, one while installing my leveling kit for help with missing bushings in the shock package. He overnighted the bushings.



Basically he had to give the blocks to me to get me to try them. Certainly a sales move on his part and a genuine concern for my interests. He did not have to do it as I was not blaming DW on his kit. I believe it's an inherent Dodge idiosyncrosy sp?



In my entire history with diesel trucks, spanning some 10 years, this is the first time I had a product donated to me for evaluation. Is it ethical for me to accept a free product to evaluate... in this case we are talking about a low cost product. If the suspension was given to me now we talking feeling like I would owe something. Here I do not at all. Kent Kroeker has spent a good deal of time with me on the phone talking suspension from a professional standpoint. I didn't pay for that either. Just as he holds nothing back on these forums. Read his posts. He tells it like it is from his experience. It doesn't get much better.



I stand by my evaluation results 100%. Is it a mask? I have no idea. To me adding a component like a dual stabilizer is a mask but repositioning parts back closer to OEM is not masking a problem. I apologize to anyone that takes offense to me doing what I did. Bottom line. . the blocks are worth the money. I would pay the price after using them depending on my wallet and fabricating mood at the time.

 

[yycguy]

I apologize to anyone that takes offense to me doing what I did. Bottom line. . the blocks are worth the money. I would pay the price after using them depending on my wallet and fabricating mood at the time.

No apology needed mike, infact its your posts that helped me fix my DW.

 

[AndyMan]

Whether mine is masked or not, I do not know. Although at the moment, I seem to Have "Cured" the DW problem, I fear that it could happen again at any time. The truck still has a tendency to WANT to DW. What I mean is that after going over a known DW inducing bump, the tires dribble for a few seconds like DW is fixing to kick in and then it immediately settles down. I should get my shocks today, and we'll see what that does towards helping out. I am fearful that it is not going to make much difference.



So can anyone tell me what else to check? The front end has been meticulously gone over. Here's what has occured:

1. Inspect Ball Joints

2. Inspect Tie Rod Ends

3. Inspect steering box and pitman arm

4. Remove slack from steering gear.

5. alignment (two days in a row).

6. Set Caster 7. 5degress positive

7. set caster 4degrees negative (current position)

8. fabtech dual steering stabilizer

9 rotate and balanced all 4 tires.

10. Check tire pressure all 4 tires.



The alignment person and I are kind of at a loss. I can pull the revtek's, and have it re-aligned, but will that help?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Whether mine is masked or not, I do not know. Although at the moment, I seem to Have "Cured" the DW problem, I fear that it could happen again at any time. The truck still has a tendency to WANT to DW. What I mean is that after going over a known DW inducing bump, the tires dribble for a few seconds like DW is fixing to kick in and then it immediately settles down. I should get my shocks today, and we'll see what that does towards helping out. I am fearful that it is not going to make much difference.



So can anyone tell me what else to check? The front end has been meticulously gone over. Here's what has occured:

1. Inspect Ball Joints

2. Inspect Tie Rod Ends

3. Inspect steering box and pitman arm

4. Remove slack from steering gear.

5. alignment (two days in a row).

6. Set Caster 7. 5degress positive

7. set caster 4degrees negative (current position)

8. fabtech dual steering stabilizer

9 rotate and balanced all 4 tires.

10. Check tire pressure all 4 tires.



The alignment person and I are kind of at a loss. I can pull the revtek's, and have it re-aligned, but will that help?

Andy thats' exactly the feeling I had when going over those staggered highway bumps at highway speeds. Those little shimmies went away as soon as I put the blocks in.

 

[AndyMan]

Hmmmm. I'm certainly not averse to trying them. I had planned on doing it, just not on the heels of the rest of what I've spent for curing this issue.



I called skyjacker and fabtech to see if they had a simmilar offering. Skyjacker has a set of blocks for $35, but it's 2. 5"s rather than 1. 5" for the KORE piece. Would you think that's worth trying, or it it too large and will only exacerbate the problem?

 

[Yo Hoot]

Hmmmm. I'm certainly not averse to trying them. I had planned on doing it, just not on the heels of the rest of what I've spent for curing this issue.



I called skyjacker and fabtech to see if they had a simmilar offering. Skyjacker has a set of blocks for $35, but it's 2. 5"s rather than 1. 5" for the KORE piece. Would you think that's worth trying, or it it too large and will only exacerbate the problem?

I don't know how Kore came up with the height they use but it seems to be the correct height. How are the Skyjacker blocks made? Could you cut them down?

 

[AndyMan]

If they are a solid block (as opposed to square tubing), I'd say they could be cut down... I don't have a tool to cut that kind of part though.