The cost of service...RANT...

[Huskerman]

The rant you are about to read has been born as a result of reading the thread about what dealers are charging for fluid changes. I am going to tell you right now that this is a rant and that if you are easily offended, stop reading now because it is VERY likely I am going to step on everybody’s toes at one point or another.



It absolutely KILLS me that folks are willing to fork over $40-50k on a new truck and quibble about a $400 service once every 30 or 60k miles. The other thing that makes me snicker is the way folks always ***** about dealer pricing. Whether it's service, accessories or the truck itself, they are all "screwing" everybody. You think the employees there agree?? How would you feel if somebody came to your work and told you that everything you are doing is over-priced and that you are screwing people because of it???



I KNOW EXACTLY HOW THAT FEELS BECAUSE IT’S BEEN HAPPENING IN MY INDUSTRY!!!!



Let me give you a little personal experience. I work in the IT industry. I have spent the better part of the last 4+ years shipping IT support jobs over-seas at the request/demand of my superiors. WHY??? Because the public wants everything at 1/5 the price that is why!!



I love to listen to folks ***** and moan about the price of everything and then 2 seconds later, they are complaining about all these jobs being shipped to Mexico or India. That’s usually followed up with the lament about how bad customer service has gotten.



WELL GUESS WHAT??? YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! I am as conservative & free market as they come but I too have learned this lesson the hard way. People want a $400 PC and then they want the service that they got when they paid $2000 for a PC. You want to pay $19. 99 for a $60 oil change and then ***** and moan about the fact that the guy half-assed it.



Well, everybody got their wish. You can buy a PC for $400 now. You shouldn’t be ****** off though when you need support and you can’t understand what the hell the guy is saying on the other end of the line.



The same can be said for ANY service/product for that matter. It's VERY easy to complain about the price of something when it's not your family that is getting fed from the proceeds. Everybody (myself included) needs to remember that.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

All pretty accurate - and one big reason for me doing all my own servicing, and NOT buying an extended warranty that I know from past experience probably won't do me any good - especially on a modded truck. Sure, some guys make out well on warranty issues - extended and otherwise - but they usually seem to be in the minority...



Sure is a shame though, to toss a $300 electronic gizmo simply because a 10 cent component failed - and there's no one available to fix it - or to pay a dealer over $400 for a fluid change when the fluids themselves can be bought for well under $100 at any auto parts store...

 

[skipro3]

I've read the thread you are ranting over. Fankly, I was left with the impression that most of the guys think this is a fair price. Labor is worth something, that's for sure. If it's quality labor that is backed up with a service guarantee and warranty obligation, then that labor portion of the $400 bill is chump change.



I think you are a lot more angry at what's been happening to your line of work in the IT industry. I'm in that industry to a certain point; I am working on some fiber SONET stuff and let me tell you, I'm getting stinking rich off it. No one can come over from India and perform the tasks I'm doing with out a work visa. I think you need to reassess where you are in the industry and realize that the money is in the commercial side of things and not the consumer side of things. By the time things perk out to the consumer, the profit margin is narrow. Most consumers don't NEED our service. Most commercial/corporate consumers live and die by staying on top of our service. So chill out and keep tabs on where to make money in the IT industry. Change your stratagy as the market changes and you can realize a very profitable career.

 

[Huskerman]

Skipro,



Actually I am not on the consumer side of things. I manage IT for other companies, for my company. I make pretty darn good money and right now, my company finds my skills valuable. Part of that is because I always volunteer to do the things that other folks won't. One of those things was going overseas to train people.



My rant isn't about the fact that people have suddenly decided that IT folks are over paid. I will ALWAYS find a way to support my family. My rant is the fact that while people will complain that it makes them angry that Walmart is pushing mom and pop shops out of business, they also complain that mom and pop charge too much.



You think a car could be built, sold and serviced like a Mercedes Benz for the price of a Hyundai? If so, why isn't it happening?



While I can agree that SOME of my anger undoubtedly comes from my personal situation, I was merely using it as an example. IE nobody thinks a $3000 PC is worth the money until they have to get their $400 PC fixed. Then they want the service that comes with that $3000 PC. The fact is everybody I know complains about two things: price and service.



The truth of the matter is that price and service tend to be on opposite sides of a scale. That was my only point. You can't have it both ways. So, the next time you hear somebody complaining about service they got on something, ask them if they would be willing to pay twice the price if they got twice the service. Most people emphatically say NO!!



The same goes for service at our dealers. As you said most folks that responded thought that $400 was about right. I was just flabbergasted that there were folks who were *****ing about the fact that the dealer dared to make some money from it. You think the guy performing service on your truck thinks he is over-paid?? I bet not!!



I have yet to meet ANYBODY that thinks they are over-paid.

or to pay a dealer over $400 for a fluid change when the fluids themselves can be bought for well under $100 at any auto parts store

I understand where you are coming from Gary but let me ask you this: is that apples to apples? You telling me you can get all synthetic fluids needed for under $100? I find that hard to believe when 12 Qts of synthetic oil is almost $50. Then you add on time and disposal fees and I have to wonder if $400 isn't a good deal.

 

[GWBourne]

im sorta on your side, but not... .



if i can buy a 35k BMW and get free service for a good amount of time... on EVERYTHING... why should i pay 125. 00 to have the oil in the NV5600 changed every 15 k miles?



it doesnt cost anywhere near that much. it shouldnt cost me anywhere near that, but thats just me...



now, if BMW made a one ton diesel truck... id be all over it...

Grant

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I understand where you are coming from Gary but let me ask you this: is that apples to apples? You telling me you can get all synthetic fluids needed for under $100? I find that hard to believe when 12 Qts of synthetic oil is almost $50. Then you add on time and disposal fees and I have to wonder if $400 isn't a good deal.

Who's talking about synthetics - or other extreme cost fluids?



I have about a 4 year supply of Delo 400 oil on hand - bought for about $1. 50 a quart = about $18 for an oil change. A new oil and fuel filter will run a bit under $20...



Antifreeze can be bought for under $10 a gallon - transmission lube was about $10 a quart last I bought, and proper spec differential lube was under $3 a quart last I bought - a couple of quarts of spec brake fluid will run less than $15, if that's part of the change. SO, the cost is pushing a hundred dollar bill pretty hard, if ALL the above is involved in the change.



Naturally, that's for a 2WD, manual transmission - 4WD and an automatic will run the tab higher. BUT, the whole fluid swapout can EASILY be done in about an hour by a competent worker with commercial shop quality lifts and tools, as would be expected in a dealer service department.



But yes, training and decent shop equipment cost $$$ too, and some prices that appear high probably are only the tip of the iceberg - but regardless, I'd far rather pay MYSELF the extra $300 for the above service than someone else, even if I do have to lay on a cold garage floor for some of it.



I can think of lots of neat things to do or buy with what I save - and for that matter, a couple of those service events done in my OWN garage will go a long way towards paying for my OWN neat tools to make the job easier next time...



I understand where you are coming from tho' - and NO, we can't have it all both ways - cheaper offshore vehicles or electronics, AND low priced LOCAL service charges. Sadly, the choices involved are not easy on young families trying to stretch their $$$ - we aren't ALL "getting stinking rich" in electronics or similar industries...

 

[GFritsch]

The same goes for service at our dealers. As you said most folks that responded thought that $400 was about right. I was just flabbergasted that there were folks who were *****ing about the fact that the dealer dared to make some money from it. You think the guy performing service on your truck thinks he is over-paid?? I bet not!!

I wouldn't mind paying the dealer their $90-$110 per hour charges if the tuck came back with all the service indicated and without me having to spend my time cleaning the truck of smudges and spilled oil, not to mention the scratches that have happened before.



Before you go defend the shops/mechanics too much let me share with you how the service works in many shops (my best friend/neighbor is a lead ford mechanic). The jobs are estimated by the book hours it will take to perform, and that's how the mechanic is paid. My friends base is about 30 bucks an hour, but can make twice that by completing projects faster than book hours. According to my friend most jobs can be completed in half the book hours. The mark-up on parts is also significantly more than the retail price of comparable parts from the auto store. The $400 dollar service probably took less than an hour and cost the dealer less than $100 materials.



I do all the service work that I am capable of for 3 reasons. 1 to save considerable money. 2 I know that all the work that needed to be done was done and 3. Nobody will take more care with my truck than I will. If I wasn't mechanically inclined, or too busy, I would ask the TDR for recommendations on good independent shops in my area and build a relationship with the owner.



my 2c



Greg

 

[rbattelle]

Huskerman, you make some excellent points. I understand your point of view, and I agree with you for the most part. I have no issues with the cost of service at dealerships, in terms of the labor. I do, however, take issue with the cost of parts.



Last weekend I needed a brake dust shield. List price is $18. I got it from an online dealer: $13. When I tried to get it at my local dealer (Voss Dodge, Centerville, OH), they wanted $24.



That's what I don't like about dealerships: they've responded to competition in the marketplace by jacking up their prices so that they can maintain profit despite sales reductions.



Ryan

 

[TheBigSgt]

Huskerman, do you want a Coupon for some Cashe Valley Cheese to go with that wine?



I've been on the in and out of the IT field for over 20 years. I won't deal with over sea companies. If if if! Companies shipped the positions overseas to be more competitive with over sea companies and each other. I deal with qwest for telephone repair all the time, if I get their oversea call center, I keep calling till I get the state side one.



You go say you volunteer to go oversea and train them in to do our jobs? Oh thats good thing! And you do that to get ahead in your AMERICAN company? Oh Thank you!

And thank GOD that american companies that are concerned about customer service are starting to bring their customer support or help desks back to the good old US of A!



Just to let you know, I'm a GS12 for the FED and work for the Treasury in Odgen Utah on our Enterprise service Desk. I was also a feild engineer for First security and a Telecommunications manager for a company in SLC and the ARMY. I have BS in IT. I know a little about whats going on.



Sounds like you feel a little guilty about your job. You might what to check with HR, they should have services for that, but you may have to go over seas for it! LOL



Hope this didn't OFFEND anybody!

 

[gitchesum]

Moving this to the Other Section seeing that it really isn't a technical topic.







Now, for my 2 pennies worth of opinion.





If a reputable mechanic/repair shop can perform the same fluid change for $300, why does the dealer cost over $400?



Same thing with parts, why does the same part I can get at Cummins for $200 cost over $300 at a Dodge dealer?



In some cases I don't see why the extra money comes into play so I will buy the same part for less money.

 

[DZink24]

I can destroy my truck on my own, I don't need to pay someone to do it!

Believe me, I in no way am sticking up for dealerships, but, they are a business, as is a coffee house, sub shop or doctor. A business' main priority is to make money; profit. If they have a rediculous markup for labor or parts; so be it. It is in the best judgement of the consumer to make up their minds whether or not to spend their hard earned dollar on an oil change, alignment, out-of warranty reapir, ect. from said dealer. Now, that being said, he who chooses to hire a dealer for a service absolutely deserves 2 things:1- said problem/service to be performed as promised, and #2, IMO, to me, the most important- give my vehicle back to me in the same condition that I dropped it off in. No backing it into overhead doors, opening doors and smacking them on pillars in the shop, setting tools on the hood, dragging air hoses across the fenders or hood, and don't let me catch you power braking during your lunch hour in the back parking lot. I am perfectly capable of destroying my truck on my own; and can do it a lot less expensive than paying someone else to do it.

And you know what- if you are gonna go powerbrake with it; do it in the lot of the nearest fuel station, as you kindly use the managers corporate card to fill my 34 gallon tank to the top!!! WITH DIESEL!!

 

[Sled Puller]

I have no problem paying twice the money for twice the service or twice the quality.



The trouble is, there is not a dealership in the country, that will give you $400 worth of service, or product.

They may charge you the premium price, but you are getting quicky lube skills, no doubt.

 

[TheBigSgt]

Believe me, I in no way am sticking up for dealerships, but, they are a business, as is a coffee house, sub shop or doctor. A business' main priority is to make money; profit. If they have a rediculous markup for labor or parts; so be it. It is in the best judgement of the consumer to make up their minds whether or not to spend their hard earned dollar on an oil change, alignment, out-of warranty reapir, ect. from said dealer. Now, that being said, he who chooses to hire a dealer for a service absolutely deserves 2 things:1- said problem/service to be performed as promised, and #2, IMO, to me, the most important- give my vehicle back to me in the same condition that I dropped it off in. No backing it into overhead doors, opening doors and smacking them on pillars in the shop, setting tools on the hood, dragging air hoses across the fenders or hood, and don't let me catch you power braking during your lunch hour in the back parking lot. I am perfectly capable of destroying my truck on my own; and can do it a lot less expensive than paying someone else to do it.

And you know what- if you are gonna go powerbrake with it; do it in the lot of the nearest fuel station, as you kindly use the managers corporate card to fill my 34 gallon tank to the top!!! WITH DIESEL!!

And it comes down to those who can and those who can't. There are people that drive these trucks that have know Idea and have the big bucks, but my time is mine, and if I can do something for less myself and I want to, I will! Then there are those who won't shop around and have this nice big target on their back and get had everytime.



Hey, here anothere thing we haven't talked about. If a dealership does a fulid change wrong, they can fix it and will to spec of the warrenty, but if Jeffy Crap messes up, GOOD LUCK! LOL :-{} I much rather have the dealership screw up the some oil change shop!

 

[WDaniels]

Huskerman, do you want a Coupon for some Cashe Valley Cheese to go with that wine?

LMAOROTG:-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[Alphacowboy]

I agree with huskerman for the most part... its what I have come to call the "Wal-Mart Mentality" They want it cheap, no matter if its junk, they just want a deal. I deal with it in my profession as well, and most of the time, they go with the cheaper guy, and about half way through, they fire the cheap hack and then hire me and I make more to rip out and repair the hacks work. I really do not get why people do NOT understand the phrase "you get what you pay for" there is a reason for the saying, I wish people would just listen to it.

 

[BILLVO]

My best come back to people who dicker over labor rates ect. at the shops I have worked for is.



I simply ask them "Do you work for free?" and upon them thinking about it for a few seconds and saying "NO". I then ask them "Then why do you expect me to?"



I have not had a reply to that in many years of using that line for those people.

 

[Huskerman]

I had prepared a huge flaming, going nuclear post response to Mr. BigSarge but I am not going to stoop to his level with personal attacks. I will address the points he made however.



If you indeed "know something" about the industry then you would "know" that IBM (as an example) already has 40k employees in India. Yes, that's right 40 THOUSAND. If you "know" something about the industry you also "know" that the story about companies moving jobs BACK to the US has been largely exaggerated. Dell did it for a few high profile companies that were willing to pay extra for onshore support.



There is a group of people who CAN do it but CHOOSE not to because time spent with their family or hobby etc is more important to them.



I COULD and do change my own oil. My rant was about a certain group of folks that buy a $50k truck (and can only afford it by financing for 10 years) and then complain about the cost of service. It’s like a guy I know who complained for hours and hours on end about the cost of formula for his kid but never blinked an eye about spending $1500+ a PIECE for each of his 6 different custom handguns.



I ask you again, DO YOU THINK YOU ARE OVER PAID?? DO YOU THINK YOUR COMPANY CHARGES TOO MUCH???



It's VERY easy to criticize "big business" when the food you put on your table isn't being put there by company X.

Who's talking about synthetics - or other extreme cost fluids?

In that other thread, it is stated that the transmission and differential oil is synthetic from the factory. That is why I said that. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me. As for your 4 year supply of Delo, BELIEVE me I wish I could get Delo 400 for $1. 50/qt but I can't! I live in a house, not on a farm so I don't have anywhere to store 4 years worth of motor oil.



If you can find a shop that does it for less than $400; GO FOR IT!! If you can do it yourself for $200 and don't mind spending a Saturday; GO FOR IT!!

MY POINT WAS (and I have said this at least 2 times already) that I find it FUNNY, IRONIC ETC. that folks spend so much money on their vehicles and then want to cheap out on the maintenance. OR you think that the maintenance is too expensive.



MY POINT WAS that people always think it's too expensive when they aren't the ones charging it.



My original point wasn't supposed to be about where jobs are going, I was trying to explain the WHY jobs are going. Americans are cheapskates is the bottom line. A lot of people that have responded to this thread have proven my point.



For the record (since BigSarge seems concerned about it) I am proud of the work I do but disappointed in the lower level of service that results from having the overseas folks doing the work. I would encourage folks that feel the same way about the way service is heading to follow BigSarge's advice and refuse to do business (whenever possible) with companies that move jobs overseas IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY ABOUT IT.



AS I said before however; most people feel stronger about the green in their wallet than whether or not they got good service. Which was my point all along.

 

[bmoeller]

Believe me, I in no way am sticking up for dealerships, but, they are a business, as is a coffee house, sub shop or doctor. A business' main priority is to make money; profit. If they have a rediculous markup for labor or parts; so be it. It is in the best judgement of the consumer to make up their minds whether or not to spend their hard earned dollar on an oil change, alignment, out-of warranty reapir, ect. from said dealer. Now, that being said, he who chooses to hire a dealer for a service absolutely deserves 2 things:1- said problem/service to be performed as promised, and #2, IMO, to me, the most important- give my vehicle back to me in the same condition that I dropped it off in. No backing it into overhead doors, opening doors and smacking them on pillars in the shop, setting tools on the hood, dragging air hoses across the fenders or hood, and don't let me catch you power braking during your lunch hour in the back parking lot. I am perfectly capable of destroying my truck on my own; and can do it a lot less expensive than paying someone else to do it.

And you know what- if you are gonna go powerbrake with it; do it in the lot of the nearest fuel station, as you kindly use the managers corporate card to fill my 34 gallon tank to the top!!! WITH DIESEL!!

Right on.



They charge what the market will bear. If people are willing to pay it, then they are the reason the price is higher than it normally would maybe be other-wise. If no one was willing to pay the prices, then they would either have to lower them, or close up shop. If the person pays to much, it is THEIR OWN problem that THEY didn't shop around, and really have NO right to ***** about it when they figure out they could've gotten it done cheaper elsewhere.



Same goes with a class action law suit (which I believe to be a frivalous suit) between some states and Microsoft. They are whining that MS is charging to much. Hey, no one put a gun to that persons head to buy the computers/programs in the first place. I have purchased 2 computers in the time frame in question. Do I think I got a decent deal? Sure. Did anyone hold a gun to my head? No. Is there stuff in the MS bundle that I don't ever use? Sure. Does it bother me? No. Will I buy another one? Probably.

My original point wasn't supposed to be about where jobs are going, I was trying to explain the WHY jobs are going. Americans are cheapskates is the bottom line. A lot of people that have responded to this thread have proven my point

I do have to disagree a tiny bit. There are plenty of people who blow money on anything they want. A lot of it isn't even neccessary stuff. Just "toys". Just want to get cheap on stuff they "need". It is all a matter of priorities, I think. Just "where" and what they "want" to spend the money on is the real problem. As you said, buying a $40+k vehicle, and putting on a $2 oil filter, and $1/qt for the wrong oil on a $6k+ diesel engine, and complain that they are maybe to lazy to change the oil themselves, and whine that they maybe got charged for $50+/hr for the work done in a shop. Or, if their negligence causes a failure down the road.

 

[Huskerman]

There are plenty of people who blow money on anything they want. A lot of it isn't even neccessary stuff. Just "toys". Just want to get cheap on stuff they "need".

Isn't that the truth man!!! Like the example I gave about the guy I know and his 6 $1500 pistols. This guy probably has over 50 guns. Which I have NO problem with. I own quite a few myself. What I thought was ridiculous was how he used to complain about the cost of formula for his kids!!!



FWIW, I think I am actually UNDER-valuing his pistols. They are all custom . 40 caliber and I think they might actually be closer to $2k a piece. Interesting priorities there.

 

[TheBigSgt]

I had prepared a huge flaming, going nuclear post response to Mr. BigSarge but I am not going to stoop to his level with personal attacks. I will address the points he made however



If you indeed "know something" about the industry then you would "know" that IBM (as an example) already has 40k employees in India. Yes, that's right 40 THOUSAND. If you "know" something about the industry you also "know" that the story about companies moving jobs BACK to the US has been largely exaggerated. Dell did it for a few high profile companies that were willing to pay extra for onshore support.



There is a group of people who CAN do it but CHOOSE not to because time spent with their family or hobby etc is more important to them.



I COULD and do change my own oil. My rant was about a certain group of folks that buy a $50k truck (and can only afford it by financing for 10 years) and then complain about the cost of service. It’s like a guy I know who complained for hours and hours on end about the cost of formula for his kid but never blinked an eye about spending $1500+ a PIECE for each of his 6 different custom handguns.



I ask you again, DO YOU THINK YOU ARE OVER PAID?? DO YOU THINK YOUR COMPANY CHARGES TOO MUCH???



It's VERY easy to criticize "big business" when the food you put on your table isn't being put there by company X.







In that other thread, it is stated that the transmission and differential oil is synthetic from the factory. That is why I said that. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me. As for your 4 year supply of Delo, BELIEVE me I wish I could get Delo 400 for $1. 50/qt but I can't! I live in a house, not on a farm so I don't have anywhere to store 4 years worth of motor oil.



If you can find a shop that does it for less than $400; GO FOR IT!! If you can do it yourself for $200 and don't mind spending a Saturday; GO FOR IT!!

MY POINT WAS (and I have said this at least 2 times already) that I find it FUNNY, IRONIC ETC. that folks spend so much money on their vehicles and then want to cheap out on the maintenance. OR you think that the maintenance is too expensive.



MY POINT WAS that people always think it's too expensive when they aren't the ones charging it.



My original point wasn't supposed to be about where jobs are going, I was trying to explain the WHY jobs are going. Americans are cheapskates is the bottom line. A lot of people that have responded to this thread have proven my point.



For the record (since BigSarge seems concerned about it) I am proud of the work I do but disappointed in the lower level of service that results from having the overseas folks doing the work. I would encourage folks that feel the same way about the way service is heading to follow BigSarge's advice and refuse to do business (whenever possible) with companies that move jobs overseas IF YOU FEEL THAT STRONGLY ABOUT IT.



AS I said before however; most people feel stronger about the green in their wallet than whether or not they got good service. Which was my point all along.

DUDE, lighten up! OK, you can have 2coupons!

IBM with 40k worth of people oversea? Cool. They expect higher than forcasted profits! Just shows that they care more for the green back than the American People!



FLAME ON!



Just for figures sake, the local dealership here charges 334+tax It all depends on what the market will bear!