The overweight thing again!

[NVR FNSH]

Frank:

Thank you for the link.

Yes, it is possible to increase the factory ratings - I'm not disagreeing with that. The DOTFMCSA says that w/mods to the main components - suspension, frame, brakes - you can raise the GVWR. Suspension mods are easy, brakes mods - add an exhaust brake, frame mods - how many of you have modified the frame to handle the increased stress levels? did you increase the section modulus of the rail? Did you evaluate the riveted joints at the spring hanger? Did the manufacturer of the air bags & e-brake provide anything that states that they tested the rest of the truck and that the GVWR can be increased to xxxx? I don't think so - I haven't seen any of these things. In fact, most aftermarket manufacturers do their best to absolve themselves of all liability.

Large Car:

You'd have to ask my momma if I was a good boy #ad

Actually, I'm a mechanical engineer who doesn't see how the regs can supersede the factory without analysis of each individual configuration. Look at the FAA and what it takes to modify an airplane - there really isn't much difference between the aircraft & ground vehicles in this arena.

What did you do to raise the GVWR - other than the tags? How do justify the increase over the factory tag? Did you have it reviewed by an engineer? You have to have house plans signed off by an engineer to add a second story - why not to increase the GVWR of your truck?

I have not read a hot shot contract but I'd be willing to bet that there are 'weasel words' in there that state that it is the owner/operators responsiblilty to meet all DOT/Gov't regs. My understanding is that the hot shot is treated as a contractor and this usually implies that he/she is responsible for all the actions. There was a case in SoCal where a semi lost its load of cement pipes on the highway, killed several people and the paper stated that under the law the driver is ultimately responsible for properly securing the load (I think the guy was DUI at the time of the accident- but that is not the point). I don't remember if the trucking company had liablility.

If the manfacturers GVWR & GCWR's are not binding then why do they even bother coming up with the numbers? Warranty denial is not a viable answer. Why wouldn't the sticker only list axle weights and how you get there is irrelevant? Actually, that would make more sense.

So you may have a have valid point - trailer weight doesn't really matter provided you're not exceeding manufacturers axle weights. Which axle wts are you judged on? Factory door post or TX DOT for a 14k vehicle?


Enough questions for now,

Brian

 

[merryman]

tagalong;
I spent 12 years presiding over a court that delt with misd. offences including vehicle violations here in Oregon (each state can vary, both as to rule and attitude about enforcement), and never saw a single weight violation charge that was not on a commercial vehicle. That doesn't mean there is not a basis for such a violation, but if there is I have not encountered. (my experience is a little stale, as the last 18 years were in a court handling major crimes and major civil litigation, but again I never saw a case come to court such as we are talking about. )

In a civil case, the rule that prevails in most states is; what would a "reasonable and prudent person do in the same of similiar circumstances"----If you put more load on a vehicle than a reasonble and prudent person under the same or similiar circumstances AND that was the CAUSE of and accident and injury, then a jury could find you liable for damages.

This sounds a bit vague, but it is fact the standard that most of live by all the time. It does not give you a black and white standard by which you can say "this rig is over and this rig is with in weight", but it does provide a guide that we can live with.
When I see some of the 38 or 40 foot fivers going down the road on a 3/4 ton truck, I wonder whether a jury might find that outside what would be reasonable and prudent, but it would be a jury question.

Vaughn

 

[mbrolin]

Merryman,glad to hear your comments. You are right about reasonable and prudent. I know there are RVers pulling rigs well over there weight limits. In fact Id be surprised if you could find even 25% which are pulling under the GCVW. Tagalong,I feel your pain. I learned the hard and expensive way after a TT purchase. Went from a 98 1500 to a 99 Cummins auto to my 01 ETH. Im surprised that the GCVWs for the 2500 and 3500 are the same. It seems the auto will only handle so much. I agree that the 4. 10s are the way to go in your case. The other would be transmission mods. Id contact BD and get this done first before anything.

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2001 HO 6spd,Quad cab,LWB,4x4,Flame Red,all options except for leather,Westin Brushguard/Push bar,Painless wiring,Radio Shack CB( so what it works},my own designed CB mount,Smittybuilt nerf bars,NW Custom rocker covers,Custom built stainless rocker light bars(more to come)

 

[NVR FNSH]

Posted in the General Diesel Forum: PSD Real Numbers

The real problem I have with towing/hauling these kind of loads has to do with the endurance limit of the truck/component and when a component will fail.

(Break to pull out Fundamentals of Machine Component Design - Juvinall & Marshek)

Paraphasing On:

Steel has an endurance limit - keep the cyclical stresses below a certain value (re: S-N curve) and the part will not fail due to fatigue - it will continue on indefinatly. Exceed that stress level and the part will fail.

I'd like to think that the DC engineers have designed our trucks & spec'd the axle wts, GVWR, GCWR to be below the magic stress level so that any given component will last indefinately, assuming used within normal guidelines (engineers can't account for total stupidity). I may be kidding myself #ad
When you exceed the manufacturers rating you MAY be exceeding the endurance limits of any given component. It is now a matter of when, not if, the part will fail. The results could be catostrophic.

Can anybody that is hauling/towing these kind of loads accurately predict when/if a component on their truck will fail? I can't.

Yes, I realize that the vac/hyd brakes on some of these trailers can stop the entire load w/o any help from the trucks service brakes & that most of you guys are safer drivers than 99. 9% of the non-towing drivers but I look at it like riding my street bike - it's not me that will get me killed. It's the idiot shaving/reading/cell phone in the other car that will kill me.

Brian

 

[LARGE CAR]

Brian,
You should try writing the FHWA and your local state DOT office to find out why they allow a trucks GVWR to be increased over the manufacturers. These are the rules and regs one has to abide by. Maybe you can get your black and white answers there. My personal opinion is the GVWR the manufacturer puts on these trucks has alot to do with the warranty. Perhaps you should look into the Heavy Haul part of trucking. What they haul via a permit sold by the states, would most likely make your hair stand on end.
You should read a Hotshot contract, its quite entertaining. If the contract driver was the one held solely liable in the event of an accident. The FHWA would require the drivers to carry public liability and not the Company. As a contractor you covered by the public liability the company maintains, thats by law.
The reason I raised my register GVWR on the both units is to have the ability to arrange my loads to where I am not exceeding my registered GVWR and not to exceed the axle raings. It is easy to exceed your reg. GVWR and not your axles and vice versa.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Here in Pennsylvania as well as some neighboring states, there are a lot of "tri-axle" dumps running. For the benefit of some not knowing what I am referring to, this would be a truck with four axles. The steering, the tandem drives and an air lift axle in front of the drives. They gross out at 73280. Biggest problem is scaling them for axle weight.

As far as safety going down the road, they can be a bear to stop. I am pretty stale on my physics so I can't get into the effects of mass, wheelbase etc.

When they first showed up, they were set up with duals on the lift axle. Now days, you see a lot running recapped fat tires off the front axle or singles. I feel that the reduced amount of rubber on the road further limits their ability to stop.

All perfectly legal of course. Just some food for thought.

 

[Ladders]

And I have to add agn - dont forget the wheels loading (rating). We keep talking tires/axle but forget the rating of the wheels that the tires are mounted upon.

just my 0. 015$ (yes I'm still around - the VA didnt kill me-yet!)

SOTSU!!
\\BF//

 

[Bad340fish]

Large, Don't you need a CDL to have that kind of rating?? I know i had to get one for my job at Interstate Batteries becuase my truck was rated over 26001(this is in Oklahoma) Just curious

BTW we have a 4700 International with the factory GVWR at 25999, just thought that was funny

Clark

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Clark
1999 2500 QC SB 5spd Flowmaster 3 chamber
1968 Barracuda Formula S Viper Blue 11. 98@112

NHRA member for life

 

[rickhans]

One more question. How can I easily determine my hitch weight? Does someone sell portable scales for a reasonable price that I can use. It would sure simplify adjusting my load on the trailer rather than eye-balling the back end of the truck to see how much it sits down.

 

[Champane Flight]

I believe everyone is overthinking the situation. If you are going to pull loads up or over your GVW,make sure your truck is set up to do so(airbags,good tires,good hitchs,heavy shocks). If the vehicle feels stable and road worthy,drive it. Quit worrying over if you are 1 to 2000lbs over your GVW. The real truth is in 15 years of profesional driving I have yet to see a fifthwheel or any private vehicle pulled into any scales. And the chances are you will never even be asked what your weight is!

You can go on forever about GVWs and CVWs,but will only hurt your head and in the long run. You guys don't want to get into each states weight limits and some litagation that would never pertain to you. Bottom line"Keep your common sense". Some people just tend to overthink a situation. I know a guy who after listening to some well wishers bought a 3500 to pull a 25' fifthwheel. And he now thinks everybody out there is overweight!

Drive safely and keep your distance,always give yourself a way out and don't depend on your brakes to do the job. Even the best electrics will not stop you in a panic situtation. More accidents are caused by poor driving than being overweight any day!

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[dmurdock]

Little late on this conversation, but I am the "computer geek" at the office for TxDOT which handles this stuff (Motor Carrier Division). Here's the link to our office: http://www.dot. state. tx. us/insdtdot/orgchart/mcd/permit/index.htm

You can also send an e-mail with a list of questions to mcd-respond@mailgw. dot. state. tx. us and get an official response.

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'01 Eth 3500 dually, no mods planned except maybe an amsoil filter & guages. See My Truck and also be sure to read What tools & methods to use for an easy 1st oil change!!!
"Be happy you don't get all the government you pay for. " -W. C. Fields


[This message has been edited by dmurdock (edited 01-21-2001). ]

 

[danandamy]

Originally posted by Champane Flight:
I believe everyone is overthinking the situation. If you are going to pull loads up or over your GVW,make sure your truck is set up to do so(airbags,good tires,good hitchs,heavy shocks). If the vehicle feels stable and road worthy,drive it. Quit worrying over if you are 1 to 2000lbs over your GVW. The real truth is in 15 years of profesional driving I have yet to see a fifthwheel or any private vehicle pulled into any scales. And the chances are you will never even be asked what your weight is!

You can go on forever about GVWs and CVWs,but will only hurt your head and in the long run. You guys don't want to get into each states weight limits and some litagation that would never pertain to you. Bottom line"Keep your common sense". Some people just tend to overthink a situation. I know a guy who after listening to some well wishers bought a 3500 to pull a 25' fifthwheel. And he now thinks everybody out there is overweight!

Drive safely and keep your distance,always give yourself a way out and don't depend on your brakes to do the job. Even the best electrics will not stop you in a panic situtation. More accidents are caused by poor driving than being overweight any day!

I couldn't have summed it up better. Nothing takes the place of common sense. When a rig is overloaded, you will know it. It will be driving you instead of you driving it. We took the 33' travel trailer out this weekend. Came up on an intersection with a stop sign. I sure thought the rig wasn't stopping well. I looked down and the trailer brake indicator was out. The connection at the plug had lost contact. Thankfully I had left plenty of room between myself and the truck in front of me that I was still able to stop, even with the Dodge brakes.

Daniel

 

[Tagalong]

OUTSTANDING reply Champane Flight... more defensive driving on our part and we'll all put less strain on the vehicles and stress on us!! I have a CDL and I practice what I learned when I went through my training. I don't drive for a profession but RVers could greatly benefit by simply picking up a CDL booklet and reading it! #ad

 

[NVR FNSH]

Champane Flight (& others),
How many RVs have you seen broken down on the side of the road? I've never seen an RV in a weigh station either but I have seen them on the side of the road with failures that appear to be the result of overloading. Poor maintenance is probably the #1 cause #ad


Actually, I applaud you friend for buying 3500 to tow a 25 ft 5th whl. Means he was actually looking at the MFGs ratings for a light duty P/U and bought his truck/trailer combo accordingly. He is operating with a bit of margin - good for him - and won't have any warranty denials due to towing. If you were to ask DC or Ford I'm sure that they would say those trucks are overloaded. I think it's pretty obvious that I don't agree with statements about the MFGs GVWR/CCWR being 'recommendations'. Lots of time & money have been spent to come up with those 'recommendations' that meet the design intent of the truck.

Yes, carefull driving will prevent the majority of collisions. This is not what I'm referring to when talking about overloading the truck. I'm talking about the long term problems and the outcome of a catastrophic failure. Just about any size load can be moved safely - once.

There are different classes of trucks for a reason. Buy the right class for the job you intend to do.

Enough - I'm done posting on this. Email if you'd like.

Brian

 

[Champane Flight]

Briar,I agree that GVWS should not be disregarded. However,I have seen people go compleatly overboard. I believe a 3500 to pull a 25' fifthwheel is just that. If a dealer wants to void a warranty because of overloading,he will have to prove it. And in my opinion is not much of a dealer. I have been overseas and seen what real overloading is all about. How about a two ton buss with not a inch of space left on it! even the top and sides have people and goods hanging off it!These vehicles last for hundreds of thousand miles. Oh yes,they do breakdown. But in short order are back on the road. It's amazing what duct tape and bailing wire can do. They would laugh at the paltry loads we haul with our magnificent machines.

I am by no means condoning someone overloading there rig by 3-6000 lbs. I am however saying that 1-2000 lbs properly balanced with good equipment(tires,shocks,airbags,and brakes)will not hurt your vehicle in the long run.
These trucks are overdesigned. With proper scheduled maintenance and care will run safely for many,many,years.

The big thing to stress is the feel of your truck. Get to know it. Know your limitations and keep your distance. There are some Ex-proffesionals out there willing to give you some safety tips and even some hands on training. If you are in the area E-mail me randr@rmi.net.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[rickhans]

I am still getting some different opinions on weights and commercial drivers license. Does anyone know about a rule that if the trailer exceeds 10K pounds that the vehicle is considered to be commercial and must be treated accordingly?

 

[Frank J. Lloyd]

Originally posted by Rick Hansen:
I am still getting some different opinions on weights and commercial drivers license. Does anyone know about a rule that if the trailer exceeds 10K pounds that the vehicle is considered to be commercial and must be treated accordingly?

Only if the trailer weight plus the GVW of your truck makes the total GCW 26001 or greater. I. E. 11,000 GVW truck plus 15,001 GVW trailer = 26,001 total GVW = commercial class A license. That is the rule here in GA anyway. Very confusing the way they try to do it. If your trailer is 10,001 or greater you must have at least a non-commercial Class A license, as long as the total GVW is less than 26,001 you can be non-commercial.


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2001 3500 4x4 H. O. 6 speed 4. 10, SLT, Cab and Chassis, 163" wheelbase western hauler stake bed 3" straight pipe, silencer ring AWOL, boost & pyro gauge, K&N, Geno's one touch oil valve, Cobra 29 bombed, Halogen backup lights, cargo bed loading area flood lights, 6" driving lights, underbed boxes, pacbrake
ready to bomb
Big Red is ready to roll!

 

[rickhans]

What is a class A license. Many years ago I had a commercial license(prior to the Fed. Govt. issuing licenses) but moved out of Tex. then back and ended up with a class C non commercial license. I don't believe that Tx. has any such thing class A non commercial license. Does Georgia recognize my Tx. class C when if I am pulling a 14k trailer with GCVW of 22000#? This is what my other post was getting at. I don't see how I can be expected to comply with other states rules so long as I comply and am properly licensed in my home state and I am complying with the Federal regulations. But what I am reading seems to say otherwise.

 

[Champane Flight]

Are you operating a comercial vehicle?The DOT cannot override your base states classification or laws. If you are legal in your home state you are legal in all states. However you must buy the temp or permanent fuel,or ton mile permits for that state and stay within there legal weights. A interesting site is the DOT site concerning CDLs. If you can make heads or tails of it. Contact your local state patrolman and ask him or stop at a state run scale and ask them. Some are Idiots,but most are pretty nice guys.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop,job to support toys. Yuck...

 

[rickhans]

I was referencing Frank J. Lloyd's response above that said that in Ga. if you are towing a trailier above 10K weight but are less than 26001 GCVWR that you have to have a class A Non commercial license. I have never heard of a class A non Commercial. In Texas a non commercial regular drivers license is a class C and you can tow any weight trailer so long as the GCVWR is below 26001.

There are several postings under TRAILERS that mention other states that have this 10k requirement and a trailer salesman in Texas also told me that if I tow out of Texas that I would have trouble in some states if I get stopped and don't have a commercial license. But I can not find anything in writing that backs this up.