The problem's not the cat. Now what?

[JyRO]

Howdy!

I got some good new and bad news.

Good News: The cat came off real easy. The nuts and bolts loosened up (Toyota quality), and the exhaust pipe has a flex section to get the cat off. No problem.

Bad News: When I cranked it, it still ran cr@ppy. Now what.

Here are my guesses, please add your own. I've got to get this thing back out on the road.

1) I was thinking maybe the timing belt could've slipped (but I'm not sure if its a belt or a chain, I'll find out tomorrow).

2) Other than that, it's got to be a sensor. Most likely an oxygen sensor.

3) Maybe it could be a broken distributor (I'll check all that stuff out), but I doubt it.

Any other suggestions? I'm trying to figure out how to get the codes. Other than that, The Warden is only letting me have about 20 minutes a day to work on the thing. Maybe a bit more. #ad


- JyRO

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Y2K 2500 Cummins ETC/DEE, SLT+, 4X4, Quad, LB, Intense Blue Sport, 3. 54 LSD, rear aux. springs (camper special), sliding rear window, all options except cab clearance lights including agate leather, totally stock engine, silencer ring removed, "stealth," mod to run fogs with high beam. (20. 8 mpg @ 70 mph) Since everybody else listed their toys, I will too.

2000 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4X4, 5-speed, 3. 4L V6 (25. 5 mpg @ 65 mph)
1995 Kawasaki ZX6-R, 97 H. P. @ Rr tire, 6-speed, . 6L I-4, 410 lbs. wet
- (60+ mpg @ 65 mph, but who can do that?) (For Sale)-[SOLD]
1990 Toyota Celica STX, FWD, 5-speed, 1. 6L I4 (36+ mpg @ 65 mph)
1983 Mazda RX-7 GSL Limited Edition RWD, 5-speed, 1. 1L Wankel (For sale)
No auto trannies in my home! Just say, "No!" to auto trannies.

 

[Champane Flight]

Start at the begining and work forward,look for the simple things. Check spark quality(Spark gap tool)assure all are equal. Then check fuel system,proper fuel pressure,etc,timing. Usually when you dump a timing belt or chain it won't even start or when it does will raise some he!!. Good luck.

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95 Dodge 2500 Luverne grill guard,headache rack,running boards and Amzoiled. Soon to be mildly bombed. 84 Dodge d-150, 318 Hooker headers,Edelbrok intake,mallory ignition,Carter Afb,Accel coil,and Custom dual exhaust. Boat,fifthwheel,motorcycles,and shop. 72000 as of 3/1/01,not even broke in yet. Old Dodge 126000 miles and running better than new.

 

[illflem]

Have you checked the compression yet? Only about $15 for the gauge, you will find uses for it later.

[This message has been edited by illflem (edited 04-04-2001). ]

 

[Bryan Brenneman]

My guess is spark plug wires if applicable. Check resistace with ohms meter. I think acceptable is 1000 ohms per foot. I could be wrong on the figure. Twice now, I have cured a problem similar to yours with plug wires.

You can check to see if you timing belt slipped by checking vacuum. I have always used the brake bosster port. The figure I remember is 15 in/mercury at an idle.

I'm glad I don't work on gas engines anymore. #ad

 

['956Wheel]

How about vacuum leaks? Plug wires? Pull them one at a time see if it's one cylinder. Bad (water in) gas? Is your timing right? I had a harmonic balancer slip on the rubber, timing mark moved. However I do not think Toyota has rubber on theirs. Bill is right, check compression... could be as simple as a stuck valve. I would not suspect the oxy sensor they won't change things that much. Fuel filter? Fuel pump? Crossed up plug wires?... we have all done it!

Just some ideas... hope they help.

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9535hundred

[This message has been edited by Statland (edited 04-05-2001). ]

 

[illflem]

Statland is right about the O2 sensor having little affect. When I removed my Toyota cat years ago the sensor came out with it, I noticed no difference in the way the engine ran.

 

[Alan Reagan]

Fuel injected or carb? If FI you may have a partially blocked injector on #3. Also, you may try moving the #3 plug to another cylinder. You know swap with another to make sure the skip doesn't move with the plug (wire too if you can do it). If it's fuel injected though I would suspect an injector unless it's throttle body injection. BTW it is a timing belt and if you are over 60K miles, you need to change it. They don't slip, they break and you can do some serious valve/head damage.

 

[JyRO]

Hey Guys! Thanks for all the responses. Here is my plan of action:

1) I'm going to buy a Chiltons specific manual, and follow their instructions for reading and interpreting the codes.

2) I'm going to follow all your words of wisdom, step by step for all the possibles you guys have raised (the ones that I think are reasonable/most) in an order I deem logical.

C. F. - I just put new spark plugs in, all 4 with correct gap (. 032") and torqued to 13 N. m. (aluminum head). It seems to be running on 2 cylinders and creating lots of exhaust heat (making the cat glow red). That's why now I'm thinking a timing problem, too retarded.

Illflem - After the code check, I think the compression gage and check will be the first thing I do. I've got a confidence level about Jap motors (Toyota anyway), and the fact that this one WAS running so well that blowby is not a problem. But a valve problem... ... maybe.

Bryan - That's not a bad thought. I guess I could've pulled something loose inside the wires when changing the spark plugs. Although it didn't feel like I did, I was making a conscious effort to be as gentle with them as possible. New ones couldn't hurt.

Statland - I drove it to the gas station and added gas system treatment to it, although that probably wouldn't help for a large amount of water. Would a timing light detect a slipped belt? I thought about checking the timing that way, but I'm not sure it would detect a slipped belt cause the light is triggered off spark plug wire signal. And that signal is generated by the crank (I think). The slipping I'm talking about would change the relationship between the crank and the cam timing. Right? I'm not sure a timing light would indicate that. Besides, wouldn't this belt have V-type teeth and not slip, but break? Hmmmm. I'm not sure. No experience there. Fuel pump, fuel filter. Wouldn't either of these make the engine either run less powerfully, sluggishly, or less than a certain rpm (all 4 cylinders running but on limited amounts of fuel). This engine seems like 2 cylinders work fine and 2 just don't feel like rolling out of bed. Crossed wires - No chance. There's only 4, they come from the driver's side of the engine, and they're to length, 4 being the shortest and the only one 4 will reach is 4, and so on. 1 being the only one that would go in any.

Alan R. - It's fuel injected. And I'm just a tad past 60k miles on the original timing belt. Try 172,000 miles. You reckon I orta change it? #ad
Soon as I get this thing fixed, assuming its not the timing belt, I'll be having a new one installed!

[This message has been edited by JyRO (edited 04-05-2001). ]

 

[Skydiver]

Jyro,You mentioned that when it heats up it loses two cylinders:Valves are too tight. The heat expands the valve train causeing the valves to not close all the way.
This with incorrect timing will quickly burn the exhaust valves. Also a vaccume leak will make them run real hot.
Good luck,Tim

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1996 3500 Feline deceased. Ready to upgrade. 87K. auto,3. 54,Ext. cab.
K&N air,Star wheel spun,silencer ring hanging on a nail.
Truck looks just like the truck on left side of page 6 issue 31.
1981 mercedes 300D Non-turbo 174K miles
1987 blue phord 2810 tractor 336 hours.

 

[JyRO]

Skydiver - If I said, when it gets warmed up, I didn't mean it. Soon as you start it now, completely cold it runs cr@ppy. The valvetrain has never been touched, I don't think it has anything to do with valve clearance. Why would the valve clearances change so quickly to create this problem?

I'll get to work on it for at least another good 15 minutes tonight before The Warden re-directs my priorities, #ad
maybe I'll make some headway.

- JyRO

 

[Skydiver]

172000 miles
When the valve seats wear it allows the valve to rise. When a valve rises the valve adjuster on the rocker must be loosened :thus valve adjustment is needed. I usually go every 35000 miles on my 22R Toyota.
A valve will go from just barely closing to not closing at all(. 001 inch is an open valve). Bad thing is the burning fuel Excapeing through the valve can QUICKLY burn the valve. Valve adjustments are not difficult but require a very steady hand. I don't know what your clearences are but someone will tell.

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1996 3500 Feline deceased. Ready to upgrade. 87K. auto,3. 54,Ext. cab.
K&N air,Star wheel spun,silencer ring hanging on a nail.
Truck looks just like the truck on left side of page 6 issue 31.
1981 mercedes 300D Non-turbo 174K miles
1987 blue phord 2810 tractor 336 hours.

 

[Doc Tinker]

JyRo,

What's the name of the parts store where you plan to get your stuff?

Doc

 

[Forrest]

Get someone to put a guage on the fuel pressure. Cheap & quick.

 

['956Wheel]

I will bet on crossed plug wires! ****Do not forget you can cross your wires at the cap! Did you pull the wires one at a time to see if there is a difference?

Valves, possible, a compression check will tell you that. Spark plug gap does not mean much on HEI systems. These Toyotas are hard to kill, when did the problem start? what was done just prior to the problem? Here is one for you... I got a cap and rotor once for a Toyota ('86 22R) and the thing ran like crap, turned out the rotor and cap were not compatable, rotor was a bit too big and stripped the "locator flat" (where it fits on the dist. ).

I believe the firing order is 1-3-4-2. . check those wires! If this came on suddenly it must be a mistake that was made rather than wear. Your Dist. more than likely runs off the cam. On chain or belt... if the front cover is plastic or not "oil tight" you have a belt, if its sealed and aluminum its a chain. (22R is chain)

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9535hundred

 

[JyRO]

I'm getting so pi$$ed off at this car. I'll tell you guys what I know. This is the best diagnosis I can make. I wish it was something stupid that I had done, but I've checked, re-checked, and triple checked everything.

Doc - I hadn't really planned on getting my parts at a certain place. I'd like to get decent replacement parts though. Any recommendations?

Statland - I wish it was crossed plug wires. I didn't pull the wires off the distributor, just off the spark plugs. And if you took the wires and threw them up in the beautiful cloud filled skies, they'd fall right back down into the correct spark plug hole, they're laid out that good and easy. That's not it, they're not crossed, trust me.

Forrest - I'll be getting to that. But for now, I can't drive it, and the cheapest way for me to get it anywhere is to rent a U-Haul car hauler and take it to a repair shop. And I'm waiting to do that until I've pulled out all my hair or until my wife finds me laying unconscious on the garage floor from beating my head against a wall.

Everybody - Here's the deal in case I may not have fully told it before. I have to assume I did something stupid or accidently. Or I have to assume that this problem just happened simultaneously to this: The previous weekend I wanted to service the car to keep it running good, since I hadn't done a thing to it since The Warden graciously turned over control of the P. O. S. to me.

So I went and had the oil and filter changed. Then I went and bought an air filter and spark plugs for it. I gapped the spark plugs to . 032" (the old ones were so wore that they came out probably at around . 065"), and torqued them to 13 N. m. (9. 6 ft. lb. ).

After doing this is when the car started acting up. At first it was OK. After about 6 or 7 drives it's totally cr@ppy. Now at idle its running on 2 cylinders, the #1 and #3 cylinders are missing. I had thought it was the catalyst due to it glowing after a drive and stinking. I took it off and the car still runs cr@ppy. Evidentally the catalyst was red from unburnt fuel collecting and burning in the catalyst.

That tells me that fuel is getting to the cylinders but not getting burnt in the cylinders. I checked each spark plug wire to verify spark, they work properly. The only thing left in my mind is-

1) The mixture is screwed up - way too rich and the #1 and #3 are the worst, so rich that the sparks won't ignite it, or

2) The timing BELT has jumped a tooth. But all I've heard is how belts don't jump, they break, and that if it did just jump, the engine wouldn't run at all.

As for 1), the mixture could be screwed up if a vacuum hose was pulled off (by me accidently), so I checked everything that I could see last night. Nothing that I saw was pulled loose. But..... there's some sort of sensor in the airbox just before its ducted to the intake manifold. I've had to pull it out to open the airbox. I don't know what it does, and I don't know what effect it would have if it was messed up.

Plus, I still don't even know if this car has the ability to store codes and if they can be read. Whew... ... am getting to hate this girlly car. I thought it would be a good commute car (cheap), but ever since I had it, its been junk. I must be a total idiot. #ad


- JyRO

 

[Skydiver]

Is it possible you cracked the insulater on the spark plug?Also what brand spark plugs did you buy?Did you accidently drop the spark plugs on the floor(This could have cracked the insulaters)-or-(did the socket slip off the plugs while torquing).
Take one of the(good)old plugs then one at a time stick one in a spark plug wire and lay it on some metal,then start it up and with it running you should see a blue spark. Just try the two misfireing cylinders.
After carefully reading your last post this has to be an electrical problem.
Still need to run a compression test.
Remain calm,think about how pleased you are going to be when she starts running on all four again.
Tim

 

[illflem]

Since it seems to have run good with the old plugs you might want to double check that the new ones are the correct type, the auto parts guy may have screwed up on you, wouldn't be the first time. Also check the vacuum lines in the day light, it could be that while you were messing around that you cracked an old brittle hose and it is difficult to see, they usually crack next to a connection. I think the sender you see under the airbox just aids in redirecting the intake air from around the exhaust manifold when the engine is cold, it shouldn't make much difference if it is performing correctly now that the weather has warmed.

 

[JyRO]

SkyDiver - Actually all the old spark plugs are in it now. The new ones are autolites, same as the old ones. I haven't dropped them, or damaged them in any way. Nothings cracked, I made sure they all came out with nothing broken and the new ones threaded by finger (ratchet extension) all the way down. Torque'en up with a torque wrench only took about 1/2 a turn. The socket didn't slip. And I've had every spark plug in in every spark plug wire and they've all arced to a nut.

Illflem - I'm about 99. 9% sure they are the correct spark plugs, I picked them out myself. It was daylight when I checked the hoses, but I didn't check underneath. I wonder if the oil change people could've pulled something loose? I'm sure they could've. The "sender" is not what you're describing. What I was talking about looks like a small plastic finger sticking in a hole on the already filtered air side of the airbox with a wire coming out its but. I reckon it must be measuring vacuum or some I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER. (Mooooaaaannn, sniff, sniff, stupid car. )

- JyRO

 

[Skydiver]

Man this is not good!
If you have spark which you do,Got fuel,yes,Next step compression test.
If you find the two cylinders that are not making power are low on compression The only hope is to loosen the valves(by adjusting with a feeler guage and proper wrenches)or have a head job done.
The only other thing could be a broken cam.
I've heard of engines running on half cylinders with a broke cam.
Tim

 

[JyRO]

Yikes! You'd think it would make some kind of funny metal noises if it had a broke cam. And that engine is really shaking good only running on 2 cylinders, but I don't hear any funny noises.

I'm going to take the timing belt cover off over the weekend and take a look around. I might as well replace that thing while I'm in there. It does have a few miles on it. If that doesn't help any then I'll start the compression tests. Ooooooo man. Oh well. I can either whine like a little girl and sit on the couch a get a little fatter, or figure this dern thing out.

- JyRO