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the REAL facts about fuel "economy" on the CTD trucks!!

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BBowers said:
Thanks for ONE person in TEN getting the point. the RIgs these days have LOW end ratings of 425 hp, and often are rated at over 500!!!! Yes, this is delivered at lower RPM, but not THAT low. 2100 is the lowest I have heard of on an old KTA19 1150 cid 19 liter cummins that typically developed 450 to 700 hp!! They went by the wayside in trucks as to emissions compliance problems but what great engines! Anyway, they are doing more with less these days with displacement, but I am sticking to my guns. WHERE IS THE FUEL MILEAGE? Also, I DO USE MY CRUISE CONTROL as often as possible. If I am on a stretch of road with no traffic lights, on goes the CC!! I try and play with the throttle to get the transmission to upshift early and keep the revs down. I try to get the transmission to shift up and lock up the converter as soon as possible to make use of the 600 plus lb ft of torque from the 5. 9. What is truly ridiculous is I have had guys respond to my query on economy in the past with claims of 19. 5 mpg with piers diesel street twin turbos making 600 hp!!! same truck as mine! Oh, and one last thing, I forgot to mention the extra 12 or so inches of vehicle WIDTH on the semi vs. dodge ctd comparo. Major difference in wind drag!!! So what gives? Are they purposely designed to eat fuel to keep us ignorant of how diesel could wean us off of expensive to produce gasoline? God forbid we all drive diesels!!
. I just read a Cummins broshure on an 02 ISX that was averaging 8. 6 MPG and had 580k miles. My 05 2500 4wd auto is only getting around 14 now, more like 13 and I am pretty dissapointed right now. Dealer says it is fuel :confused: I agree that if the laws of proportionality apply then my truck should be getting at least 25 and more like 35. My 05 only has 6500 miles but it has had several 17 MPG tanks but not even close any more. everything is hand calculated so I feel your pain.
 
I'm with you on why don't our small displacement diesels get better mileage. Having been in the auto industry all my life I think it is all one big flippin consperacy. A 1955 chevy boat of a car that weighs 5000+ lbs would spit out half of it's fuel charge out the exhaust during an emission test probably still got better than 11 miles to the gallon. Yet a 2005 Acura MDX Suv with the same weight and the latest engine technology that allows you to virtually breath the exhaust and has vastly improved drag coefficient. Will only net you a mile or two better fuel economy. Now I know we are not comparing apples to apples, but 50 years of technology should do better. And i'm not counting the better as just being less emissions.
 
It's primarily the aerodynamics. Above 50 MPH aerodynamic drag becomes the major factor in the fuel mileage game. Once you get the vehicle(be it 8#, 8000#, or 80000#) the only thing it has to overcome is the friction between the tires and the road and the forces acting on it from the wind. If you shaped these trucks like a VW Jetta then I believe we'd be getting closer to the 30-35mpg mark. A guy here at work has a 2005 TDI Jetta, he gets 43mpg highway. My wife had a 1996 Dodge Avenger(4cyl) and we used to regularly get 38mpg highway. I was able to squeeze 35mpg out of the 1995 Camaro 6cyl she had. Why such good mileage? They are all shaped to cut the wind. To further prove my point, my carbureted '85 CJ gets 14-15 mpg on city streets(<50mph) and 12-13 mpg highway while my wifes '04 Jeep Rubicon gets 16 mpg city/highway and tops of 17-18 straight highway. 20 years and numerous technology advances and they can only net a couple mpg increase? It all has to do with the shape of the vehicle. Has anyone been to the cummins website and read their "Secrets of Better Fuel Economy" guide? It's good reading.



http://www.everytime.cummins.com/every/pdf/MPG_Secrets_Whitepaper.pdf



BTW, I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting that.



Jeff
 
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Initially, I was a believer in the Rokktech sensor. Then, gradually, I noticed my mileage dropping off. This past week, I did two unloaded 90 mile runs; one with the Rokktech sensor and one with the stock sensor. I was extremely careful to duplicate the driving conditions (almost completely at 65 mph), the weather was the same, and I filled up at the same stations on each end. Results (all hand-calculated):



with sensor: 22. 09 mpg

stock sensor: 24. 64 mpg



Since buying the sensor, I'd read some threads here on the TDR that a lot of '03 owners, while pleased with the seeming increase in low-end grunt, saw a decrease in mileage. I guess I'm one of them now.

After removing the sensor, I took an unloaded 545 mile round trip (95% at 74 mph highway speed with only a little in-city driving) and got a hand-calculated result of 18. 16 mpg. That number included the drive back to NM, and the resulting climb of 2500 ft altitude and bucking the always-present West Texas/NM wind the whole way back. Considering my truck, I guess I have nothing to complain about.



Steve
 
On my 48 mi daily commute, it's all interstate with gently rolling hills. If I keep the cruise between 70 and 75, then I can get 21. 5, almost 22 MPG. If I stay around 80, then it drops to around 20 MPG. I have slightly larger tires than stock, 265's instead of 245's. The rest of my description's in my sig. line.
 
So what would happen if we did put an N14 or ISX or any of the 9ltr plus engines in our trucks, whould we be at the same spot? Yeah I know power to wieght ratio has a lot to do with it.
Just wondering out loud
 
WGibbs said:
On my 48 mi daily commute, it's all interstate with gently rolling hills. If I keep the cruise between 70 and 75, then I can get 21. 5, almost 22 MPG. If I stay around 80, then it drops to around 20 MPG. I have slightly larger tires than stock, 265's instead of 245's. The rest of my description's in my sig. line.



Hand or Overhead?



Merrick
 
Install an 18 speed transmission and 2 speed rear axle

barbwire said:
I am with you now, BBowers. It is VVVeeerrryyy difficult to understand. 8000 lb versus 80,000 is 10 times. Therefore we should get 10 times the mileage. Not to mention the width and height difference, as you stated. As some have mentioned, speed kills. But, when a person is running down the same road, at the same time,at the same speed, under the same conditions, as a semi, you are still only making whatever you make, and the semi is still making 6-8 or whatever. The light truck should make 60 to 100 mpg. Considering the differentials.

QUOTE]



Install an 18 speed transmission and 2 speed rear axle and place an engine in your truck with about 1/4 the horsepower YOU will be getting lots better mileage but you will be shifting alot also truck will be gutless



Years ago the Big Rigs started going with aerodynamic body design, smaller engines and lots of GEARS. These trucks take quite awhile to get up to speed But get better fuel mileage.
 
The power to run a vehicle down a flat road is made up of 3 major components - internal vehicle friction losses (engine, trans, rear end), rolling resistance of tires, and aero drag. At freeway speeds, aero drag is by far the major component of these three. So while an 80k semi very likely will have 10x the rolling resistance as an 8k pickup, this is only a small part of the power required to move. At 70 mph it may only have 2x the aero drag (definatly not 10x). Throw a supersize tall 5th wheel camper behind your pickup and now you have a similar frontal area as a semi with a likely WORSE coefficient of drag.



Conversely - in stop and go traffic up to say 35mph - an rig that weighs 8k vs one that weighs 80k will get close to 10x difference in mileage. You wont see a semi get 6 mph in stop and go .....



Mathew
 
SJBrooks said:
This past week, I did two unloaded 90 mile runs; one with the Rokktech sensor and one with the stock sensor. I was extremely careful to duplicate the driving conditions (almost completely at 65 mph), the weather was the same, and I filled up at the same stations on each end.



How can you measure fuel consumption to two decimal places by topping off after 90 miles? The error percentage on that, given the dilation of 36 gallons or so (depending on how you top it off) with the change in fuel temperature as the engine runs makes your result totally meaningless. The 18 mpg I believe.



I think what is happening to our trucks is injector fouling due to combustion temperatures beeing too low. Free flowing exhausts and air filters make things worse as far as fouling up faster. (After putting on free flowing air filters and mufflers, I would notice an initial improvement of gauge MPG, followed by a decline. ) Also, while putting more air thru the engine is better for power, it wastes more heat (fuel) in heating up a needlessly large mass of air and just dumping it out the tailpipe.



Since switching from 4. 10 to 3. 73 and to 315 tires, I almost never get fouling at freeway speeds anymore. (with free flow filter/exhaust)

Before, I would see the mileage getting worse as I was on cruise control at 70, and it would climb back up after a hard run and resetting the gauge. Running it hard enough to keep the EGT at about 800 for at least 2-3 minutes every hundred miles is about the only way to keep injectors clean and mileage up. If they are badly fouled, you will need more like 10 minutes at 1000 to bake off the deposits. A long hill and a trailer is the answer.
 
Well, I've heard it all NOW!!!

Abdiver says rolling resistance is negligible compared to aero drag on a semi vs a ctd dodge. Ok, lets try that out. Go and find a semi driver with an 80-100k lb gcvw rig and on flat ground go try and push the thing with no brakes set/applied, transmission in neutral. Then try it with say a 2500 ctd dodge. You might get the dodge to move if two guys push, but I bet 10 couldnt push a loaded 18 wheeler!! Now that is serious rolling resistance. Even if you used the engine to overcome the static friction, then went to neutral after you got it rolling, I bet they couldnt even keep it rolling! Point being, there is a crapload of friction from the tires to the road, bearings to races, gear to gear, etc. in an 18 wheeler compared to a dodge 3500 or 2500 weighing 8k lbs. the aero drag has got to be at least twice what a pickup has on an 18 wheeler because it takes energy to bull the LENGTH of the rig through the air as well as air surrounds the whole semi. All in all, I bet the coefficient of aero drag on a rig is about 2. 0 or worse and a ctd pickup is about 0. 8. lower of course being better! Oh, and the engine thing...come on, don't trust me, read up on your on, the 9 to 14 liter rig engines today put out major horses!! It's not unusual to see a modern rig making 500 horses and 1500 lb ft of torque!! They have usually 9 gears total, not 18. Only the heaviest duty haulers have 18 speeds anymore, and the most you see is 13 speeds typically. Yes, that includes the two speed axle. Rpm's? Well my research from ex-trucker buddies indicates about 1500-1800 rpm cruise speed at 70-80 mph, and most truckers I have seen don't use speed governors, they often blow me off the road trying to squeak 16 mpg empty at 70 mph out of my mexican built dodge as they get 6-7 mpg hauling 100k lbs.
 
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Hey buddy, you might want to review some texts on pumping losses in internal combustion engines. If you free up the intake you quit trying to supply air through a drinking straw which unloads the engine and frees up horses, like running an engine with a clogged air filter, it will smoke, lug, make little power, and auto destruct from soot in the oil over time. COnversely, woth a free flowing exhaust, you blow the spent exh. out quickly and reduce back pressure. Back pressure allows the combustion chamber to not empty itself well as the pressure in the exh, system allows reduced flow from high pressure(combustion chamber) to low pressure(exh. system). Ultimately, if ya had 2 psi back pressure it would allow a greater differential for the combustion chambers to pump spent gases into than if you had 10 psi back pressure. Getting rid of spent gases more efficiently insures that when the intake valve closes that a more pure charge of just fuel and air is up next for combustion than having a few percent extra CO2 and water vapor. yes, high flow exh. lowers the underhood temps, but don;t worry, Mr. thermostat will adjust itself and keep jacket water temp steady. PLus, colder, denser air has more O2 molecules for more BANG!! on the intake side. Thanks for all of the replies, but I think we are all still missing the point about how ridiculously inefficeint our rigs are in comparo to 18 wheelers.
 
Dual Rears and economy

I am surprised to read that the duallies get 18 or better empty. Any add-on performance part is just that-PERFORMANCE. These items are not designed for economy, they are designed for horse and torque.

My 2005 2wd 2500 will get 19-21 at 65-75 empty. However, it is all STOCK. I presume duallies are designed for power and hauling serious load. Should that presumption be true, I would think you would be lucky to get 17mpg. Flashing the control unit may be a good idea. Not all DC trucks come off the line the same. There are too many manufacturing variables to cause the poor fuel economy. Faulty components, bad electrical connections, erroneous programming of the black box, etc. .

I have also found that cold weather is detrimental to fuel economy. If you run in air colder than 50 degrees, the economy will go downhill until the engine warms up. I had a run in upstate NY around Christmas (can I say that on this site instead of Holidays?) and the temp was around 18 F. Just hauling 400 lbs of AC units brought me down to 16 until it warmed up.
 
Look, I know there are a lot of people on here that will swear up and down that they will get run off the road if they don't drive 80 mph while pulling a 15k 5-ver.



I call BS on that one. Nobody in a CTD with a 15k-ver is getting run-over by anybody. After owning 2 2nd gens and 1 3rd gen, the sweet spot has almost always seemed to be right at 55-60 mph. That is where I have always, always, ALWAYS gotten my best highway MPG. I consistantly have gotten over 20 empty at those speeds without fail. I got almost 19 fully loaded while towing a light load (a full bed and towing a car with a car dolly).



Some folks just want to drive their truck like a sports car. The price is crappy MPG.



Huskerman
 
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more factors

I'll throw a few more factors for consideration into this discussion.



There's been a lot talk about power and weight. A statement was made that 10 guys probably couldn't push a loaded semi even with a rolling start. That's likely true. I wonder how many horse power 10 guys put out? I wouldn't want to get in a pulling contest with a horse. So lets talk about power-to-weight ratio.

Dodge @ 325 HP x 8,000 GCW = about 25 lbs/hp

semi @ 525 HP x 80,000 GCW = about 150 lbs/hp

The semi is moving 7 times as much weight per HP. So to equalize things, let's put a 46HP motor into the Dodge. Maybe a small diesel from an RV generator. With a dozen or so gears, you could move the Dodge down the highway at 65 MPH. I bet you would get better fuel mileage too, but not 7 times better.



There hasn't been much talk about the comparison between driving styles. I'll bet that if you drove a loaded 18-wheeler to work and back every day, wouldn't see anywhere near the mileage claimed by over-the-road truckers. Conversersly, if you fill your tank and hit the highway, drive non-stop at a steady as possible cruise speed, in top gear, around 1700-1800 RPM, until the low fuel light comes on, I think you'll see your best MPG ever.



The problem with all these comparisons, is that they're just not realistic to the way we drive our Dodges and the kind of performance we expect. 46 horsepower - sheeesh! I expect more than that at the flick of a switch :-laf



If you want a conspiracy, it's in the price of fuel. $2. 73 for diesel in Las Vegas today, the most expensive grade - oil companies making record profits last year.
 
What you fail to see is that we aren't using 325 horses traveling down the road empty. We are using just enough to overcome aero drag and rolling friction plus driveline losses. I'm sure a 46 horse diesel would move a dodge p/u ok, compared to a loaded semi, but they seem to move pretty ok with 525 horses and 80-100k lbs of weight. That is, if the 46 horse diesel had 200 lb ft of torque, which is possible if it had a long stroke like the semi engines. Anyway, as I was saying, if I am crusiing steady, and I take my foot off the go pedal, I slow immediately, which means as I 'm cruising, I'm using just enough rack setting to move 'er on down the road. If my foot is on the floor and my truck is heavily loaded, and my rpm comes up to rated hp levels, then I am using the full 325 horses. just watch the readings of hp and torque on a chassis dyno sometime at each rpm range and varied load levels and you will see what I am talking about. One of my former rides was a 480 horse blown mustang cobra, 1997. ATI procharger, 3 core, 8 psi boost. That's 480 sae net hp. at the flywheel with accessories. I dynoed 400 to the rear wheels at 6,000 rpm and 365 torque at about 4800 i believe. It registered 15 hp on the dyno rolling at a steady 55 mph. 15!!! The rest of the hp needed is to overcome aero drag. Let's say I have 50 percent extra contact patch on my tires, and three times worse aero drag. add in there that the diesel is more suited to rigors of cruising while hauling lots of weight thanks to its torque level and curve. Also add in there that the rig weighs twice what the cobra did and about 500 extra lbs. Consider the added thermal efficiency of a diesel. So, I bet I'm using about 50 horses going down the road at the most since the truck is empty. I' making lots more torque, yes, but overall, rack determines amount of fuel injected which makes the power happen. with the rack barely cracked, I should be getting major mileage at 55-60 mph. The semi has the throttle open a heck of a lot more than I do as he cruises at 55-60, but the real tick off here is that they get 6-7 mpg doing 70-75 where I struggle to get 15. It doesnt add up. Im comparing apples to apples. steady cruise. both trucks. Don't bring in the city thing. The only thing I can think of now is that the real disparity is that the air velocity through the diesel and the combustion chamber temps are low on the empty dodge. This loss of thermal efficiency migth account for some loss of efficiency. The semi is operating at very heavy throttle settings, injecting lots of fuel, getting real hot egt's and is operating at near max continuous power levels, mcp. We are not, however, but it explains why guys tow 15k lbs with extra aero drag and get 12-13 mpg with the dodges. Still, even here, the semi at 100k lbs is over 4 times heavier mgcw. The loaded dodge is 8k plus 15k, or 23k lbs total combination weight. WHere is the 4 times better economy?

60 mpg? how bout even 25!!!!????? It doesnt add up! Period.
 
I'm getting 20 mpg highway... all stock short a FASS, Rocktech, and (almost) straightpipe (No cat)... getting better now that I'm at 66k... also, this is running 245 stock rubber and under 2k RPM.



Also, keep in mind that they have the winterized fuel out and it is noted to cause decreased mileage... it took mine from 18mpg to 15mpg until I installed the FASS and Rocktech.



steved
 
BBowers said:
Hey buddy, you might want to review some texts on pumping losses in internal combustion engines.



No offense, but the fact that diesels are more efficient due to no throttling losses, and higher compression, (and higher BTU per gallon, which is really just fuel specific, not engine specific) is widely known and advertised, even on www.fueleconomy.gov .



My point is that there is a downside to running a 5. 9 liter engine empty at 2200 rpm and comparing its specific fuel consumption per horsepopwer to a 14 liter semi engine running at 1200-1400 rpm at 75% of its rated capacity, with pretty high exhaust temperatures, and having to shift gears to keep it in that efficient 200 rpm band.

Air is made up of 80% non combustible gasses, and they only cool the fire needed to push the pistons. More air dilution=poorer fuel economy. Too little air=meltdown of engine metals + high NOx emissions.



Your solution to best fuel efficiency is to run the engine at a specific target EGT, such as 800F (depends on particular engine), and shift whatever gears it takes, and whatever rpm and boost it takes to stay there. (usually that means very low rpm in town and cruising) We lack the gears and this is why in the not too distant future most cars/trucks will have CVT (continually variable transmissions) that will rev up the engine just enough to supply the power needed at the moment at the most efficient rpm/boost required. (Also, variable displacement, and variable valve timing/duration is becoming more common. )

That is if the EPA was not involved. Since there is no mandated mpg for heavy pick-up trucks, they are tuned to pass EPA and still produce advertised HP, not fuel economy. In 2007 the NOx limits are so unrealistically low that the only way to maintain fuel econmy and meet EPA is to use catalytic urea injection into the exhaust. If you want a really efficient diesel wait until those come out. I think the MB bluetec engines will have that, and european engines do have it. Of course, there is the extra expense of that chemical bottle that will need to be refilled. But it allows the timing to be advanced to the optimum efficiency point, then clean up NOx in the exhaust.



Also, a semi in town, (and at 70-75 mph) only gets 4 MPG, and accelerates at a fraction of what most of us do.
 
Arrrrrghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dispute your claim about the 4 mpg economy on the rigs. Just check out the amsoil website if you don't beleive me. Also, I am doing my best to remember an article about the high fuel prices impacting the trucking industry from OVERDRIVE magazine from a few months ago when prices went over 3 bucks a gallon. Yes, I agree we don't have the gears to keep revs low, and no aftermarket company offers one either. What a waste! I'm sure 7 speed autos and 8 speed manuals on the aftermarket would sell well as folks are laying out 3-4 grand for built up 4 speed autos and allisons already. I wish everyone would just admit that there is a genuine mystery here, and that evenly grossly inefficient, we should still get 30 mpg!!!! (empty) An das for turning 2200 rpm, that is on a small diesel, which can efficiently develop higher rpm for extended periods. The big rigs have broader rpm bands now anyway, 2300 or more rpm available, and some I beleive as high as 2600. I agree that DC not having to epa rate the heavy p/u's is a problem, but what is bizarre is the best aftermarket programmers don't really have a fix for this prob anyway. With electronically controlled diesels, we should be opening a new frontier in efficiency inthe aftermarket as epa compliance is more "flexible" with "off road only" disclaimers putting real power and efficiency at the touch of a button. Even Bullydog told me that they did not have any plans for a derated hp program for peak mileage or any other plans for a download that would dramatically increase mileage. I told them if they would develop it, I would buy it!! At 2. 29 to 2. 79 a gallon, who isn't looking for better fuel efficiency from their CTD dodge? Let's be honest! I paid 500 bucks to get 1 mpg! Oh, and one last thing, acceleration. I accelerate so slowly that it takes me 30 seconds to hit 60, other motorists pass me, and I just let them. I ease around and feather foot it to conserve fuel. I think most rigs are never more than a 2 car lengths behind me. Try again!
 
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