2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission The Vibra Machine - "Front end guys" HELP!!!

[Joe Mc]

Go to post number #17 for final resolution then if you wish . . .

Long one - guys - please trudge on:

Front end woes. Had friend get next to me at speed both front tires shaking. Tires wear fine, wheels are about a year old (never curbed), tires less than 10k, I use dyna beads, have rotated front to back same vibrating. My old 305 Coopers did same thing, had Road Force Balancing done, used dyna beads after removing road junk balancing weights, and the tires lasted for 45k, vibrating progressevly worsens at speeds over 45. Tire wear pattern is excellent??? I rarely get on the highway as I work 3 miles from home but when I do the ride stinks!

Everything in the front end is tight and has been double checked (shock mount bolts, control arm u/l bolts, track bar @ axle & frame) all joints are good - a bit of play @ steering link to drag arm joint and a bit @ sector shaft to box bearing - doubt these last two would "make" the front end vibrate? both side U/L ball joints tight. There's no play in front end when sitting on stands and wiggiling the tires side to side - WTF is it???

Bit of history:
Bought in 01 from dealer in Yorktown Heights NY, w/75k - presently has 149k. I noticed it had new right rotor, caliper and u/l ball joints (cheap POS ball joints that I replaced last year w/Moogs or TRW forget?) it took a r/suspension hit - obvious as to the right front (only) parts the dealer replaced.

Seems as if the vibrating appeared and has not gotton worse since I went with bigger than (at about 100k) the 285s that were on in when I got it. But is not going away. I replaced all four shocks (Monroes were OK but loose on the bottom and ruined the bolts, wnet with Bilsteins), new bottom shock bolts (tightened the bejimminies out of them - bouncing my big arse on breaker bar w/cheater pipe - "thats got to be tigh - right").

I'm going to attempt to post some pictures of the lower control arm to frame bushings which I inspected yesterday - they are dry rotted but not totally de-vulcanized from the arm sleeves - note the out of roundness on the inner sleeves where the bolt slides through. I've read that the rubber has already begun de-vulcanizing (wonder what Spock would think of this term?) by the time dry rot appears - But once again - I doubt that the arms are "causing" the vibrations? I tightened all the control arm bolts and was able to get at least 1/2 - 3/4 turn on all but the lower to axle one's - the ones with the adjuster cam washers - guess the front end guy used an impact?

Everything mentioned above, which will get attention - I. E. : sector shaft play (plan to get DSS stabilizer bearing kit), steering link to drag arm joint play (plan to get the 3rd gen track bar upgrade & steering link set up) and the worn arms (plan to get new control arms/complete lift kit) would "pronounce" the existing vibration (right) not "cause" it. But I'm not throwing money at it for upgrades until I get "rid" of whatever is "causing" the vibration. I could throw all the aforementioned parts at the front end and either improve or not "completely correct" the vibrating that is going on.

1. Could it be a bad hub bearing - everything feels tight?
2. Could it be a bent axle - how to check?
3. Could it be a bad axle to hub "U-Joint"?

Somebody SOOT ME!

 

[TGroves]

well reading what was replaced from a front end hit in the suspension ,,, why didn't they have replaced the bearing "hub" assy and knuckle,,, ? is if it was hit hard enough to damage the rotor brings up questions ,,,, i. e axle housing ,,axle,, knuckle and bearing assy ,,, but mic the lower shock mount or all the mount holes to see if the holes are not bigger than the bolts ,,, the bolt will move in the hole no matter how tight you get them

 

[Joe Mc]

As far as why not do the bearing? Leave it to a dealer to get by with the least they "think" they'll have to do to make the sale. Who knows for sure what happened because it was done and fixed before I ever saw it. As far as the shocks, the bottoms are not moving I took a prybar and tried to move the bottom of the shock - nada. Keep them Cummins

 

[Silver_Ram]

Joe,



I sent a PM earlier, then had another thought. Pull the front diff cover and see if everything looks good. Diff internals could be messed up. Look for metal chunks, etc... The axle shafts the output shafts don't disconnect from the bearing, because of the center axle disconnect.

 

[Joe Mc]

Hey thanks for the reply - I'll check the PM shortly - As far as the diff cover had it off maybe 2 weekends ago to change the oil, and it was really clean, no chipped or excessivly shiny teeth, no metal in the oil, standard stuff - everything looked good.

 

[TGroves]

well joe i'm thinging front axle shaft is bent right side ,,,,... ... take a measurment from the axle housing to a referace point on the frame both sides and make sure that point on the frame is the same from one side to the other ,,,, do a measurment on the outer most point on the axle and move inward about six inchs or on the inside of the lower suspenion arm to the same point on the frame (maying sure nothings in the way from point to point )or this may work to find a long road, smooth and drive the truck about 50mphs and put it i neurtal and coast put you hand at 12:00 on the steering wheel and turn it to the left @11:30 and them back to 12:00 and then to 12:30 what this will do is to load the bearing and see if one is loader than the other ,, if you turn it right it will load the left bearing and if you turn it left it will load the right bearing ,,, but i thing you have a bent axle

 

[Joe Mc]

Thanks for the thought. I'm leaning towards that too or the hub (but all is tight?) so unfortunately I'm thinking axle.

I'm going to try an get a dial indicator on the section of shaft that protrudes from the housing and measure runout then compare to left side.

 

[Joe Mc]

Any new thoughts?

 

[Joe Mc]

Latest - I dialed the left rotor variance was 0. 0005" - nothing, same when I checked the outer round area of the hub. Right side was 0. 0001" same on the hub.



Just removed the dyna beads last night and put the Centramatics on - WOW! :--) Night and day - it's nice to enjoy driving my truck again - the wife may not like it as much now that the vibramachine is dead :-laf



"The Vibra Machine is Dead! Long live the Vibra Machine" - Not!

 

[Joe Mc]

Ah, after driving it a few days I realize the vibrations is still there :{ it's just not as pronounced as before the centramatics. Off to the truck frame and alignment shop for troubleshooting - my brain is tired and they're more proficient with these things. More to come.

 

[Joe Mc]

Got to Frame & Alignment Shop yesterday. Everything tight except Drag Link ends. $120 for Moog units (lifetime replaceable - just like the trackbar, long rod & stubby) I reused the adjustment sleeve. Did the job in my driveway - piece of cake - still have to center steering - too cold.



Alignment shop road test results: yep pulls to the left that's alignment. Due to my wheel tire combo (tip of rim contours towards tire and tire has bead to protect rim) their equipment would scratch my wheels trying to get them on, so I'll borrow a set of tires from a friend and get back whenever? As far as the vibes - they say it's definitly a balance issue (I have just installed centramatics) but the questions is, is the out of balance issue tire or ? ? ? That's what they say could take forever $$$$ to figure. :{



The new drag link ends tightened things up and reduced the veroicty of the vibrations Oo. , but it's still there. Went to have tires spin balanced last night, got all 4 off and no sticky weights



At least I'm gaining ground More to come . . .

 

[Joe Mc]

Joey Versus the Vibra Machine Act # (I forget?)

Latest in the continuing saga . . .



Tires balanced: Worst one needed 7. 0 inside 7. 0 outside it was on rear and returned to the rear. Best one needed 4. 25 inside 5. 75 outside.



Verdict: better, but vibration still there :{ #@$%!



Looks Like I'll be pulling front and rear axel shafts and getting them checked out. But before I do that. I plan to set rear on stands and run up to the speeds I've experienced vibration and see if I feel it. Take off tires (4 lug nuts on each axel), try again if still vibrating, take of drums, if it's still there - gotta be an axel.



If the vibration is not present with the rear up then it's off to front end land, at least there's no drums to deal with.



Oh, forgot to mention when @ frame shop yesterday, I told them I just put 3 new universal joints in, and since they asked if I had drive shaft balanced I said no and to go for it. Results: It was true and only off about 1/4 oz on the front and back of the back shaft (two piece shaft when there's a LB QC - unlike the SB QC which is a once piece) and about a 1/4 oz on the front of the forward shaft. So it ain't the shaft and I asked them since they had the shaft out to replace the carrier bearing they took it off and showed it to me and said it would be a waste of my money to replace something that wasn't bad. So I didn't replace it.



I'll check the trans, and engine mounts on the way to the front end.



Once at the front end I'll set the whole truck on stands and put her in 4W high and try spinning things again.



At this point at least I know it's not tires/wheels.



And the saga continues . . .

 

[Joe Mc]

L/rear hub bearing loose. After pulling axel and nut wedge, I put a socket and bar on the nut - it turned a bit more than 1/2 before stop. Took it apart, inspected - shocked that everything was smooth and no burs etc. Oo. cleaned it up and torqued (per manual) 120 - 140 ft lbs (settled on 138) spining the hub to set preload, then back nut off 1/8 turn. Low speed (38 - 45) vibration gone. High speed (60 and up) still present. Have to check preload on R/rear and look into the front bearings. At least I'm gaining. This one is a $#%#$ $%#^%)(*^ and $#%$#.

 

[SOsterday]

Ever have a shopping cart wheels wobble on you? Same principle - CASTER.



I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess that caster is your problem. Of course imbalance will make the wobble worse.

 

[Joe Mc]

Ever have a shopping cart wheels wobble on you? Same principle - CASTER.



I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess that caster is your problem. Of course imbalance will make the wobble worse.

Thanks - It's been since last summer that I had the alignment done (riped off $^#@ bunch of DB's that did it) this truck has always vibrated like this, tires are spin balanced (last week) and I have Centramatics on it too (week before last).



I guess my next step - at least an inexpensive step - would be to get the alignment done.



I was really ticked off that the L/rear bearing was loose - but way happy that it wasn't damaged / removed the low speed vibes.



More to come . . .

 

[TGriffith]

Ever have a shopping cart wheels wobble on you? Same principle - CASTER.



I'm no expert, but I'm going to guess that caster is your problem. Of course imbalance will make the wobble worse.

Just to pile on here, I'd have to go with Caster as well. I do a lot of Jeep supsension work and anytime you put a lift on, even a small one you get anywhere from a mild wobble to "Death Wobble" all caused by the Caster being off. a good alignment shop should be able to fix this without much issue. I suspect there's been enough work done on the frontend that the alignment has just gotten pooched.



Good luck.

 

[Joe Mc]

Finally Got It!!!!!!!!!!!

Control arm bushings shot.



DC wanted $417. 00 shop to shop cost for new upper & lower arms and the bushings.



Top Gun Customz tubular, upper & lower arms w/zerks for both ends and polly bushings, delivered for $255 ($240 + $15 shipping) takes 5 - 10 working days +/- based on backlog. I received mine in 8 days.



They build the arms to your truck's present specification.



I. E. They ask year, model (2500, 3500 etc), 4X4, 4X2 or 2wd, engine, GVW, long/short bed, OC/Std Cab, stock height or lifted.



In my case I have 2" spacers and told them my truck was lifted 2" to see if they were for real , the woman asked "do you mean, you have 2" front leveling spacers?". REAL!



They take the data provided and convert stock arm length to present need and make up the arms.



The trucks drives better than ever!!! Oo. no more drifting all over the place, no more pulling when braking, steering is nice and tight and most of all no more blasted VIBRATIONS



Last note - make sure you torque the arm bolts to spec, oh also use a paint pen and mark cam washer on (at least) the bolt head side of the lower arm to housing adjustment before you start wrenching. I found it best to do one side at a time removing the bottom arm totally out in order to ease removal and installation of the top arm. The upper and lower arms on the opposite side will keep the housing from wraping on you, put upper and lower bolts and nuts on and snug them before proceeding to other side. You may have to pry the tabs a bit to insert the ends just remember to whack them back so they are straight - of course after you insert a bolt.



Man am I glad that's over - truck is a pleasure to drive again, handls sooo much better and smooth at any speed :-laf